Men in Black
16/2/12 09:28![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png)
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Here is a picture from today's House Oversight and Government Reform Committee hearing about the Obama administration's birth control mandate:

The first row are the allowed witnesses.
All those people a couple rows behind them? Well... those witnesses just don't fit in.
That's why most of the Democratic women on the committee walked out of the room.
Just now, Oklahoma GOP representative Jim Lankford implied that these men in black were being "berated" by the committee. In fact, they've mostly been getting strokes just short of full-body massages from most of the remaining committee members. This hearing is such a transparent and over-the-top, right wing extremist attack on the administration (one Representative invoked those dastardly laws against smoking in public buildings as a sign of the slippery slope the administration has set up) that clips from it should be used by Democrats in the upcoming election.
I cannot imagine any reasonable and honest person watching this hearing and not being appalled.
Partially crossposted from Thoughtcrimes
*

The first row are the allowed witnesses.
All those people a couple rows behind them? Well... those witnesses just don't fit in.
That's why most of the Democratic women on the committee walked out of the room.
Just now, Oklahoma GOP representative Jim Lankford implied that these men in black were being "berated" by the committee. In fact, they've mostly been getting strokes just short of full-body massages from most of the remaining committee members. This hearing is such a transparent and over-the-top, right wing extremist attack on the administration (one Representative invoked those dastardly laws against smoking in public buildings as a sign of the slippery slope the administration has set up) that clips from it should be used by Democrats in the upcoming election.
I cannot imagine any reasonable and honest person watching this hearing and not being appalled.
Partially crossposted from Thoughtcrimes
*
(no subject)
Date: 17/2/12 02:42 (UTC)Let us explore this Transitive Property of Sin.
Organization performs action = Sin is attached!
Insurance company performs action = Sin is attached!
Employee performs act = Whoopee! No Sin!
Yet in all three cases (assuming a free labor market) the monetary outlay for the employer is the same.
(no subject)
Date: 17/2/12 02:50 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 17/2/12 03:08 (UTC)B) Insurance company buys stuff = Organization is Responsible!
C) Employee buys stuff = Organization is not Responsible!
Still don't get it. If 'C' 'clears' the organization, why not 'B'? If B fails to clear the organization, why does C not also fail? It's not the movement of money... that's theoretically the same in all three.
(no subject)
Date: 17/2/12 03:33 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 17/2/12 03:51 (UTC)> responsible for what is passed along.
Why? It can only be because of the presumption that the predicted rise in insurance fees will be automatically passed along by the insurance vendor. It is seen as mechanistic and automatic, because merchants and businessmen are not 'responsible' for pricing shift. We pretend they have no agency.
> Once the money leaves the hands in the form of wages, they're no longer responsible
> for what happens in that way.
Only if the increase in wages necessary to offset the value of the contraception inclusion is NOT seen as mechanistic and automatic. Otherwise attaching special "responsibility changing" super powers to one transaction (employer to employee) as opposed to another (employer to insurance vendor) is magical thinking.
(no subject)
Date: 17/2/12 04:11 (UTC)It's the concept that, if they're paying for a service, they're paying for everything that's being offered. It's sort of like the Planned Parenthood/abortions thing - yeah, you can earmark your donations for non-abortion stuff, but you're primarily freeing up cash for them to provide other services that include abortion. It's still funding it, just not as directly.
(no subject)
Date: 17/2/12 08:03 (UTC)As you said, any money in the pot results in the overall work a company does. So if, for example, HIP provides birth control under some plans, is the church sinning for assisting their company even if their plans do not provide birth control?
(no subject)
Date: 17/2/12 12:29 (UTC)Not at all. I know where you're going with this.
(no subject)
Date: 17/2/12 13:33 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 17/2/12 15:20 (UTC)It would be like not shopping at WalMart because they sell birth control. Your purchasing of a pair of pants there doesn't impact that business. Compare that to Planned Parenthood, who relies overwhelmingly on donations and thus needs to segregate their money differently.
(no subject)
Date: 17/2/12 15:27 (UTC)While you may be buying just for your group, the money goes toward funding procedures for everyone that gets covered by the company, including the procedures that you don't like for moral grounds. It's not like a religious institution can say "have the money we pay not go toward funding anyone's abortion," and even if they did the same logic you're using about Planned Parenthood would take place: where just because that specific money doesn't go there, by giving any money you enable them to be able to safely allocate the funds anyway.
(no subject)
Date: 17/2/12 17:35 (UTC)Yes and no. You pay a company who makes a profit over offering many plans to many groups, yes. That company may offer different services to different groups. All of that is true, but you're not funding someone else's coverage, only your group's.
(no subject)
Date: 17/2/12 17:54 (UTC)Except that while you're just paying for your groups coverage, the money from those payments funds everyone's coverage, not just your specific group.
Along with that, if the argument is that as long as they don't fund it for their group then all is well, what is the problem with the insurance company going directly to women for free birth control coverage without the involvement of the organization that is buying the overall group coverage? Is the argument that insurance companies will tack on the cost somewhere else, thus having them pay for it in the end anyway?
And, if that is the argument, wouldn't that work with anything else in any other context? If an insurance company ends up having an extra administrative expense that comes from something you disagree with on a religious/moral level, then are you having your rights violated because the cost may be passed to you?
(no subject)
Date: 17/2/12 17:58 (UTC)And when you buy pants at Wal-Mart, you're paying for all of their profits, not just the profits on birth control.
I get what you're trying to do here, but it's not analogous.
what is the problem with the insurance company going directly to women for free birth control coverage without the involvement of the organization that is buying the overall group coverage?
Because the only reason that relationship exists is due to the payments and negotiations of the employer.
If an insurance company ends up having an extra administrative expense that comes from something you disagree with on a religious/moral level, then are you having your rights violated because the cost may be passed to you?
Yes, if the government is mandating it as such. You'll recall that the insurance mandate actually has a religious conscience exemption clause for groups like the Amish or Christian Scientists. There's no reason why that same exemption should not exist here.
(no subject)
Date: 17/2/12 18:03 (UTC)Because each Amish person is choosing to not get insurance for religious conscience reasons. That is different from this context, because a religious-run company is saying that individuals who may not even have the same religious beliefs are not allowed to get coverage for something, even when the institution itself is not involved in the process of providing that specific coverage, as it is a completely separate package from what they do want to provide.
(no subject)
Date: 17/2/12 19:37 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 17/2/12 19:48 (UTC)So, you're okay with the insurance companies giving birth control coverage to someone who works for an institution, if it is done in a direct insurance company to individual person process and not without the authorization or acknowledgement of the company they work for?
(no subject)
Date: 17/2/12 22:58 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 17/2/12 23:01 (UTC)Not to mention that preventive car can keep costs on their end down and, in turn, increase their ability to make a profit.
(no subject)
Date: 17/2/12 23:03 (UTC)...except that they're approaching them because their employer, the ones paying for most - if not all - of the plan, have already contracted them.
Not to mention that preventive car can keep costs on their end down and, in turn, increase their ability to make a profit.
Maybe, maybe not. I linked to a CBO thing earlier that disputes that.
(no subject)
Date: 17/2/12 23:07 (UTC)So? I'm not aware of any legal or contractual requirement banning insurance companies from contacting their clients to provide options their employers don't have an interest in covering.
I'm also not sure why anyone who supports free and open trade would support any kind of contractual agreement like that.
(no subject)
Date: 17/2/12 23:09 (UTC)But the issue is about who's paying for it, not who's doing the contact.
I'm also not sure why anyone who supports free and open trade would support any kind of contractual agreement like that.
It's because I support free and open trade that I oppose any sort of coverage mandate.
(no subject)
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Date: 17/2/12 09:04 (UTC)By that logic any wages dispersed to an employee who uses contraception is indirectly paying for contraception.
(no subject)
Date: 17/2/12 12:31 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 20/2/12 10:34 (UTC)> it puts the responsibility away from the Catholics
Well, firstly, since so many Catholics use birth control, this statement is problematic. Lets say instead "Those who oppose birth control, ostensibly for reasons of Catholic Dogma". Too long I know, so lets pronoun it as "them".
The responsibility is ALREADY 'away' from 'them'. Each individual in any such insurance program is capable of exercising their own choice informed (or not) by religious dogma. Some may, some may not.
Attaching responsibility to the money flow in this way is a farce. The individual obtaining the service is responsible. They are the 'Sin circuit breaker'.
If you choose to continue to argue in this Transitive property of Sin via 3rd party removed purchases, whoever will you argue against Gun Shop owners NOT being responsible for the deaths caused by their product?