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talkpoliticsMadison, WI.
When Scott Walker put his plans into motion, we were personally affected. My husband's lab at the UW is totally funded by NIH grants, has NOTHING to do with the state budget, yet he was part of the cuts. Despite being in a university setting, he has to run that shop like a small business...generating revenue from "customers" (ie: grad students, gene therapy staff, professors) to cover overhead, salaries and benefits and he is not the only gig in town. He used to enjoy that sole proprietary status, but since gene therapy has become such a HOT money maker, especially here...at least 10 other digital microscopy labs have popped up.
So, his benefits were cut too. He is not even in a union. So, he hates Scott Walker and the whole thing pisses me off as well
I think its safe to use teachers not in higher education as an illustration here, since they are at the crux of this debate. K-12 teachers will thrive under Walker's proposals. Good teachers will continue to shine, while slackers and those who commit crimes and rightly expect (under our current system) to enjoy paid administrative leave will be screwed. I think those teachers who spend thousands of dollars every year to supply their classroom with needed-but-unfunded-by-our broke (sometimes corrupt) districts, will see a bump in income. Granted, these profiles typically fit the elementary school educators but still, I was always baffled when my post college roommate collected the same salary as say, another high school Calculus teacher I know who clearly was not meant to be in education. The Kindergarten teacher friend filled our apartment's storage closet with 1000s of dollars in supplies her classroom needed, but was unfunded by our mismanaged school district. The unions were not suffering at any point through all of this. The calculus teacher basically admitted to a group of us that she stumbled upon eductation as a major, and hated (mostly the girls) in her class, hated that she didn't drive a brand new car, and just, her job made her generally depressed. Many mental health days on the taxpayers dime but her melancholy self was covered under the unions.
My sister in law is the type of person you meet and can tell within 5 minutes that she has a way with kids (ask my kids, my nieces and nephews...she is their star) and is passionate about their development. She teaches second grade and is widely acclaimed by her peers I've met. My aunt, OTOH, is a high school PE teacher who, together with her PE teacher husband, use their coaching positions at the school to give their own offspring the starting QB positions, starting volleyball positions as sophomores, etc, and have even been called on these transparent behaviors in the press. Guess which one opted out of paying the 1K in union dues this year? My sister in law is confident in her abilities, strong in her convictions and doesn't need a union to "back her up" ie: take 1K annually out of her growing family's income for "union dues." My aunt brought the Recall Walker petition to our Thansgiving gathering and got completely shut down by everyone but my husband. He told her he'd already signed it in Madison, she encouraged him to sign the petition AGAIN (he refused) which is the kind of tactics Recall Walker folks have been using. The recall signatures have been collected and now our state has to spend more $$ (that we don't have) to verify each and every signature on the recall petition. Scott Walker hasn't done anything illegal...he has divided our state and created a lot of discord, yes, but he hasn't even committed an offense that justifies a recall. Yet, here we are.
Teachers will thrive under a non union arrangement. There simply is no need for an uninformed union rep to cut into the end product. Education is too far reaching to go on the way it has. Post Walker reform, there are many school districts here in Wisconsin that are not even interested in ratifying the union, despite the voices up at our Capitol (again, typically not teachers) loudly suggesting otherwise. Politics and emotion are closely linked, of course. I just hope that logic will prevail for the sake of education's future. There is a huge opportunity to set a precident here, and fact is being obscured by protest signs that compare Walker to Mussolini. It's not looking good...the few teachers I know who honored their contract last year during the walkouts and showed up for work ended up being shunned by their peers who spent DAYS up at the Capitolalthough their protests would have been heard after school too and would have given their displaced students a more positive adult role model message than skipping out. Our 14 Senators who skipped out on their duties and hung out in Rockford, IL (on the taxpayers' dime) for several weeks were given a stuning "war hero" welcome home when they actually returned to their office jobs. Yeah, pretty crazy.
Madison is defintely living up to its 80 square miles surrounded by reality reputation. We all could have gone on with the unions taking a cut, but we had someone come in who clearly wanted to do more than theorize for the next generation, he took action. It's change and it's hard to accept but if you break through the rhetoric, it is taking education in the right direction.
So, I've asked and havent gotten a good answer...what I am missing in this whole spectacle? I know it's not cool, not Hollywood, to support Walker but WTF?
Xposted
When Scott Walker put his plans into motion, we were personally affected. My husband's lab at the UW is totally funded by NIH grants, has NOTHING to do with the state budget, yet he was part of the cuts. Despite being in a university setting, he has to run that shop like a small business...generating revenue from "customers" (ie: grad students, gene therapy staff, professors) to cover overhead, salaries and benefits and he is not the only gig in town. He used to enjoy that sole proprietary status, but since gene therapy has become such a HOT money maker, especially here...at least 10 other digital microscopy labs have popped up.
So, his benefits were cut too. He is not even in a union. So, he hates Scott Walker and the whole thing pisses me off as well
I think its safe to use teachers not in higher education as an illustration here, since they are at the crux of this debate. K-12 teachers will thrive under Walker's proposals. Good teachers will continue to shine, while slackers and those who commit crimes and rightly expect (under our current system) to enjoy paid administrative leave will be screwed. I think those teachers who spend thousands of dollars every year to supply their classroom with needed-but-unfunded-by-our broke (sometimes corrupt) districts, will see a bump in income. Granted, these profiles typically fit the elementary school educators but still, I was always baffled when my post college roommate collected the same salary as say, another high school Calculus teacher I know who clearly was not meant to be in education. The Kindergarten teacher friend filled our apartment's storage closet with 1000s of dollars in supplies her classroom needed, but was unfunded by our mismanaged school district. The unions were not suffering at any point through all of this. The calculus teacher basically admitted to a group of us that she stumbled upon eductation as a major, and hated (mostly the girls) in her class, hated that she didn't drive a brand new car, and just, her job made her generally depressed. Many mental health days on the taxpayers dime but her melancholy self was covered under the unions.
My sister in law is the type of person you meet and can tell within 5 minutes that she has a way with kids (ask my kids, my nieces and nephews...she is their star) and is passionate about their development. She teaches second grade and is widely acclaimed by her peers I've met. My aunt, OTOH, is a high school PE teacher who, together with her PE teacher husband, use their coaching positions at the school to give their own offspring the starting QB positions, starting volleyball positions as sophomores, etc, and have even been called on these transparent behaviors in the press. Guess which one opted out of paying the 1K in union dues this year? My sister in law is confident in her abilities, strong in her convictions and doesn't need a union to "back her up" ie: take 1K annually out of her growing family's income for "union dues." My aunt brought the Recall Walker petition to our Thansgiving gathering and got completely shut down by everyone but my husband. He told her he'd already signed it in Madison, she encouraged him to sign the petition AGAIN (he refused) which is the kind of tactics Recall Walker folks have been using. The recall signatures have been collected and now our state has to spend more $$ (that we don't have) to verify each and every signature on the recall petition. Scott Walker hasn't done anything illegal...he has divided our state and created a lot of discord, yes, but he hasn't even committed an offense that justifies a recall. Yet, here we are.
Teachers will thrive under a non union arrangement. There simply is no need for an uninformed union rep to cut into the end product. Education is too far reaching to go on the way it has. Post Walker reform, there are many school districts here in Wisconsin that are not even interested in ratifying the union, despite the voices up at our Capitol (again, typically not teachers) loudly suggesting otherwise. Politics and emotion are closely linked, of course. I just hope that logic will prevail for the sake of education's future. There is a huge opportunity to set a precident here, and fact is being obscured by protest signs that compare Walker to Mussolini. It's not looking good...the few teachers I know who honored their contract last year during the walkouts and showed up for work ended up being shunned by their peers who spent DAYS up at the Capitol
Madison is defintely living up to its 80 square miles surrounded by reality reputation. We all could have gone on with the unions taking a cut, but we had someone come in who clearly wanted to do more than theorize for the next generation, he took action. It's change and it's hard to accept but if you break through the rhetoric, it is taking education in the right direction.
So, I've asked and havent gotten a good answer...what I am missing in this whole spectacle? I know it's not cool, not Hollywood, to support Walker but WTF?
Xposted
(no subject)
Date: 26/1/12 20:51 (UTC)As for unions, they're a tricky issue but I will say if you have a TRADE - electrician, plumber, etc then I absolutely believe 100% that it should be unionized. Those are the kinds of professions that benefit the most from unions and are basically required for anyone who wants to get into those fields of work. "artisan" jobs mayhaps? I forget what they're called. Blue collar?
(no subject)
Date: 27/1/12 00:18 (UTC)And I agree.
(no subject)
Date: 27/1/12 11:34 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 28/1/12 00:35 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 28/1/12 01:07 (UTC)I am a non-union plumber and wouldn't have it any other way. But it depends on who your employer is and what kind of work you are doing. Working for a large company (like a government) makes unionization more appropriate. An independent contractor doing residential service work hardly requires the backing of a union.
(no subject)
Date: 26/1/12 20:52 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 27/1/12 03:23 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 27/1/12 07:04 (UTC)If I cross-post (which I don't), I'd just copypaste the whole content of the text box, or the Html code. Yeah I'm that lazy.
(no subject)
Date: 26/1/12 20:53 (UTC)It comes down to whether ordinary people can unionize. That is all. If you say no, fine. Just be honest about it. Tell someone to their face that they have no right to representation by a union, no right to have someone watch their back when management decides they must be punished, no right to professional contract negotiators rather than Management dicta. Oh, and do give them a good reason why.
Do spare the anecdotes, though. It's tiresome.
(no subject)
Date: 27/1/12 00:27 (UTC)And, once again, a district can ratify the union but there hasn't been a lot of interest in that here. That's pretty damning proof right there and I'm not sure what your parents experienced but there are civil protections in place that would protect them from management, the false sexual assault allegation (seriously, a teacher on the recall side used threw that out as a point of contention) or whathaveyou that makes you fear the loss of unions in education, who are just in there for a money grab.
(no subject)
Date: 27/1/12 01:31 (UTC)I would be the first to concede that there are bad teachers out there. Duh. Even most teachers would agree. That's not the problem. Unions formed around here to protect all teachers, simply because teaching is a profession that lacks basic objective peer evaluation.
Think about it; for most of their careers, teachers isolate themselves with a group of students and, if all goes well, teach these students. Who evaluates the teacher? That proves tricky if not well nigh impossible. Your aunt and uncle abuse their positions, yes; what of teachers who abuse their connections and get good teachers fired by ingratiating themselves with administration? Or those teachers who don't happen to go to the "right" church, or wear the "right" skin color?
Unions are just a group of people who agree to stick up for one another collectively against an abusive system. Your sister who passed on the dues probably works for a good district. I've said it again and again, some unions are there for a reason. Not all workplaces need them, but those that do, really do.
Again, Wisconsin and Walker's pusch is not about teachers. This is about all public sector unions. Would you care to share a few anecdotes about the incompetent linemen or dopey firemen you've met to justify slashing wages and pensions?
(no subject)
Date: 27/1/12 13:48 (UTC)I'd appreciate it again, if you'd quit with the ad hominem attacks and weak examples like the fireman one. Again, I am referring to teachers unions here. Teachers unions are a joke and harm education.
(no subject)
Date: 27/1/12 20:18 (UTC)You also over-generalize teacher unions, making one failure peopled with your relatives out to be exemplar of all. Every union is a bunch of people; how people work in one local may be completely different from how they work in another, especially if the two are separated by distance. The teacher's unions you know might well be icky and cootie infested; I don't know. I've never been there. The teacher unions of which I am aware seem pretty level-headed. Dad and the step-mom were pretty involved, so they know the details. Both worked for the union, but I can attest I didn't grow up rich, rolling (as you seem to suggest) in the ill-gotten gains from poorer working stiffs.
Further, your analysis fails to note that education in particular and the public sector in general has suffered cutbacks due to tax revolts and falling revenues due to real estate devaluation (thanks to the bubble and its popping). This does not mean that unions, preventing a loss in wage power for its members, is responsible for poverty in the districts. Loss of tax revenues should be always addressed first. I firmly believe this will increase to the point where the public sector itself is threatened if our funding structure is not addressed.
The economy will not improve (at least permanently), not ever. It seems your outrage at teachers trying to, I don't know, be able to afford a house and eat without needing food stamps is but the first straw man to be batted in frustration at the simple fact that the economy will never improve. Perhaps we should be collectively trying to realize that we will never live lives as prosperous as we did just a few decades ago. That would be a nice step.
(no subject)
Date: 28/1/12 06:44 (UTC)Again, my point...non union systems would benefit teachers and save them from having to fund (on their current meager salaries under "education" overseen by unions) classroom materials in broke school districts choked by unions. This is especially evident at the elementary school level.
For the third, fourth time? I forget... a phantom body that has absolutely nothing to do with education yet provides "for profit" oversight is not in the benefit of teachers, administrators or the public interest in education. I am guessing you don't have any kids? Maybe that's why it's comfortable for you to feed off the rhetoric, as opposed to actually looking into what is best for education.
Please take some time to read up on the issue. Check your facts on the firefighter's unions as well. YOu obviously are not informed on what is going on with the recall yet continue to comment & REFRAME my comments as well. You,ve basically filled this thread with subjective half truths and CNN on the hour talking points.
(no subject)
Date: 29/1/12 17:51 (UTC)And there are examples of successes within the teachers unions throughout. One cannot form the crux of an argument focusing myopically and — worse! — selectively on one or the other. That's just a bad practice, especially when forming policy.
. . . a phantom body that has absolutely nothing to do with education. . .
A body comprised of the educators represented in the district can hardly be described as "phantom." Again, my father and step-mother both worked with the union and both taught within that district. The gangster portrayal of shake-down artists parasitically robbing the workers does not apply in most unions of which I am familiar. (There biggest fault might be, rather, a somewhat tedious attention to contract detail and process. In other words, they're more like accountants than characters from Scorcese movies.)
And again, I am not feeding off of any "rhetoric." I base my opinions on real-world observations and interactions with real people who actually belong and for/work with unions. I don't watch CNN (or any commercial mainstream news media, for that matter). I am challenging your comments on their veracity, not reframing them. Why reframe a poorly built structure? Better to tear it down before it collapses on its own faults and hurts someone.
You have yet to answer why you would deny the right to organize to any public employee. Firefighters and police officers definitely fall into that category. Until that happens, I will regard the keyboard diarrhea that passes for your informed opinions as the smelly dreck it is, and challenge you to provide evidence to support your conclusions.
(no subject)
Date: 29/1/12 18:59 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 29/1/12 19:26 (UTC)If you describe your posts as citations worthy of consideration and not "emotionally-led ignorance", I cannot help you. I further doubt anyone else can help you. Good luck.
(no subject)
Date: 29/1/12 19:31 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 27/1/12 20:27 (UTC)Had there been no union he might have faced incarceration, even though the charges were found by an arbitrator to have no legal standing in later civil proceedings. A mother (with diagnosed mental difficulties) simply wanted to get rich off her daughter.
Hold whatever opinions you like about reality; but if you spit into the wind, expect to get wet and look all the sillier for it.
(no subject)
Date: 28/1/12 00:48 (UTC)That sounds like a problem with the courts rather than a defense of unions.
(no subject)
Date: 29/1/12 17:39 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 29/1/12 02:22 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 29/1/12 18:04 (UTC)During such events, it is imperative a systemic check on over-reaction be in place to prevent witch hunting. The union is just such a check. A strong union need only make itself present at proceedings to present management with a reminder that they are not accusing a lone and wounded individual, but that the individual has backing with legal resources and therefore teeth.
Remember, to the public and regarding crimes such as these, an accused is often guilty by mere accusation. Many parents would insist that the accused be removed from public interaction ("to protect the children", of course). Management has, therefore, every motive to strike at the accused with every resource, even someone with over thirty years of good service like Dad. Letting the police sort things out seems logical, and gets the PR mess off their hands. A union rep in the room changes the dynamic of the initial interaction, and in this case defused the passions long enough to review, or at least consider the evidence.
Dad didn't get off completely. By the mere accusation of impropriety he was forced into early retirement. He did, thanks to the union, at least avoid jail time.
(no subject)
Date: 29/1/12 19:01 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 29/1/12 19:30 (UTC)Reckless drivers never seem to realize the danger of their actions until after the wreck. Again, I only hope you never find yourself in a position where a union can help you, though it may be the only way to convince you of their usefulness.
(no subject)
Date: 29/1/12 19:42 (UTC)You clearly want to argue but your comments are ill-informed and insulting to professional educators. I'm done with this little exercise in futility but I strongly suggest you read up on the facts, for starters.
(no subject)
Date: 26/1/12 21:16 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 27/1/12 00:30 (UTC)