A libertarian seasteading project

[ddstory.livejournal.com]

Most of you have probably heard about this already. Peter Thiel, the founder of PayPal and one of the first investors in Facebook, has invested one and a quarter million dollars in the Seasteading Institute company, which funds a project by one Patri Friedman, a former engineer at Google. The project is to build the perfect libertarian utopia on artificial islands off the coast of California.

The islands are expected to be constructed on floating platforms powered by diesel engines. The weight of each platform should be 12 thousand tons and one of those things should host up to 270 people. The islands will float some 370 km away from San Francisco, which means in international waters. The project includes building a whole archipelago of these islands and eventually hosting millions of people by 2050.

The first floating office will be built sometime during this year, and in 2019 the first towns will appear in the Pacific, ready to be populated.

The purpose of all this is ideological. Peter Thiel is planning to create a sovereign country on those islands, which would eventually be recognized by the UN. The new country will consist of poleis, whose citizens will experiment with various ideas of government. The stated principles of this new society include nice things like the freedom of thought, of expression and action, freedom from moral and other dogma and norms, and from the now existing laws. The creators of the project are aiming to build a new type of society which they believe hasn't been tried before.

It's worth noting that the creators of this utopia don't reject money and capitalist relations, in fact they embrace them. Their statement, although still a bit vague, goes along the lines of "we'll avoid doing the same mistakes that our predecessors did". As for water, energy and food supply and other resources, the new state would get them exclusively through trade with other countries.

I think this is a consequence from the notion that true libertarianism hasn't been tried in the real world yet, at least not in its purest form as imagined by the hardcore libertarians. I invite our libertarian friends here to correct me on this if I'm getting it wrong. That said, I think this project can't be a bad idea, and people who are willing to pursue their own understanding of a better society, and who have the means to realize their dream, should act upon it, and join such a society. I'm not sure how this would work differently than all previous attempts at building similar utopias, but I can't help wishing good luck to all who'll join the project. The more diversity of ideas and experiments, the merrier. What say you? And the critics of libertarianism, do they think this project poses a threat that people might actually see a successful libertarian example and start embracing libertarianism in larger numbers?

Many analysts keep saying that the 21st century will be a time of a major shift of paradigm in both the social and political sense, with new ideas and systems being introduced and eventually re-shaping the status quo on a global scale. Is a project like this, and other such ideas, the precursor to these changes? Or is it just a bold but naive attempt to social escapism that is unsustainable in the long run? Gimme your opinions, please.

And finally, a hypothetical question. If you see such a project actually working just fine, and being a success, and if it matches your personal understanding of a better society, would you venture to join it? If yes - why? If no - why not?

Comments

[eracerhead.livejournal.com]

Or is it just a bold but naive attempt to social escapism that is unsustainable in the long run?

Yes. This will be about as successful as Marxism, or any other theoretical society that comes out of pure thought rather than evolving out of reality.

And finally, a hypothetical question. If you see such a project actually working just fine, and being a success, and if it matches your personal understanding of a better society, would you venture to join it?

It's going to be very difficult to judge success; it will have pluses and minuses, it will benefit some but not others. I predict that it will end up simply being another way to launder money so as to avoid taxation, whilst the principals live under the protection of countries that have sustainable governments. In other words, it will be a parasite.

[malasadas.livejournal.com]

I give this only a 15% less chance of catestrophic failure than Sunland -- and only that because this has some rich guys attached to it.

[anfalicious.livejournal.com]

Sunland only fails when you cease to believe!

[badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure how this would work differently than all previous attempts at building similar utopias

This is exactly my problem with this venture and ventures like it. At the end of the day, you're still talking about human beings who are inconsistent people, and when you're talking extremes like "things are so bad, we're going to make our own country to deal with it" in this day and age, you're not going to get the cream of the crop to go along with you.

If you see such a project actually working just fine, and being a success, and if it matches your personal understanding of a better society, would you venture to join it? If yes - why? If no - why not?

Assuming it is something working fine, I might consider it if other obligations aren't in the way.

[allhatnocattle.livejournal.com]

Assuming that the invite is an open invitation to anyone/everyone who can afford to invest and participate in this project, you're exactly right. They won't get the cream of the crop.

On the other hand a selective guestlist invitation to only the cream of the crop, or only well liked people who get already along is different. It's the difference of the Harley Owners Group going to Sturgis, and the Hells Angels going to Angel Acres.

[jonathankorman.livejournal.com]

I find it hard to resist imagining this whole project coming out something like Rapture. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture_(BioShock))

[ddstory.livejournal.com]

The road to hell, etc...

[ghostwes.livejournal.com]

I suspect this will be a colossal failure, and I find most "Libertarians" and their ideas abhorrent, but I am still in favour of the experiment. I mean, if all of the "Libertarians"/Objectivists/Randites and what have you move there, that also necessarily means that they are moving *away* from Canada, which can only be a positive thing for us.

This pretty much sums up what I think would happen:

http://www.angryflower.com/atlass.gif

Still, it will be interesting to see what happens with this.

[jonathankorman.livejournal.com]

Atlas Shrugged 2: Shrug Harder (http://bradhicks.livejournal.com/393124.html)

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

As in all other "ideal" societies, this is bound to fail because it consists of people who are far from ideal.

[pastorlenny.livejournal.com]

Utopia is within you.

[surferelf.livejournal.com]

I thought it was a silly idea when I first heard it, but now I'm hoping it succeeds just to spite those people in the video.

[kayjayuu.livejournal.com]

+1

[the-rukh.livejournal.com]

Yep, its amazing the things you can do when using a pile of money you got from our current mixed system. I bet they could make a communist island too, would that prove something?

[ddstory.livejournal.com]

If it could make them happier at least for a while...

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

Some pirates are going to be very, very wealthy and very, very happy before too long if this is actually done.

[meus-ovatio.livejournal.com]

That's going to be one annoying homeowner's association.

[jonathankorman.livejournal.com]

Made me laugh.

[terminator44.livejournal.com]

Meh. As soon as they legalize marijuana they'll be getting a visit from the Navy SEALS.

[squidb0i.livejournal.com]

If the recession hadn't happened and I was still comfortably cashy, I'd totally donate to this, if only to get the inevitable failure out of the way somewhere other than here.

[abomvubuso.livejournal.com]

Couldn't they just use some old oil platforms in the Gulf of Mexico like those guys in Sealand did?

Oh wait.

[stewstewstewdio.livejournal.com]

Couldn't they just use some old oil platforms in the Gulf of Mexico

I was going to recommend the same thing. One of the problems with this whole thing is that there will not be a natural resource or method of sustainable production. The only way they would be able to have an economy is to exploit the economy of another country, which would make them subject to the rules they so abhor. I kind of like my idea (http://talk-politics.livejournal.com/1149881.html) better.

[politikitty.livejournal.com]

I'm trying to find the first article I saw referencing the project. It painted it in a much different light, and one that's probably more likely to succeed.

As a libertarian utopia? Destined to fail. But as a way to provide good jobs for smart foreigners who don't have a job market and provide affordable and competent workers for start-ups who struggle with the existing limitations in getting an HB1 visa? Brilliant, and sure to add a lot of good in the world.

[sealwhiskers.livejournal.com]

Well, I'm not going to speculate if this is going to be a failure or not, since it is important to remember that libertarianism is
so different from what I and many other people believe in, that what we would call 'failure', they could easily call 'success'.

I will give an example for why it is so:

The most important thing to remember about floating pontoon-land is that it will be a completely in-organic society, which means that social structures
and membership is controlled and regulated from the very beginning. The crass reality with floating shitland is that you'd have to have certain resources
to even be allowed on there, and if someone should lose their resources they will not be able to stay, but silently float all their shit into mainland again.

So a "success" by that standard would constitute that other "countries" would just have some other place to send their unwanted citizens in order to get rid of
poverty, the mentally ill, the handicapped or the otherwise malfunctioning. Maybe those other countries, not built on pontoons could send them all into space in a perfect libertarian utopia...

[omnot.livejournal.com]

Interesting perspective.

What if this Libertarian Utopia was not permitted to expel individuals who did not perform to the expected standard, but had to maintain and support them like any other nation? I bet that would play havoc with their attempts to prove "superiority".

[rick-day.livejournal.com]

I'm gonna buy 2.

One for me.

And one for the garden

[jolly-roger.livejournal.com]

They have to have free immigration there, don,t they? OK, we're coming. And Mexicans labors too.

[ddstory.livejournal.com]

It. Shall. Be. Glorious.

[omnot.livejournal.com]

I rather wish that this experiment had been established long ago so that it would have failed already, and the nutty Libertarians who irritate me with their failure to grasp the necessity for compassion would not be so damn certain that their philosophy is superior.

I hope this experiment goes ahead strongly. Libertarian evangelists: Please do test your philosophy in the most favourable conditions you can manage. Take detailed notes of how it fails and then *shut the fuck up*. Thank you.

[montecristo.livejournal.com]

Contrary to your baseless assertion, libertarianism is not the absence of compassion. Libertarianism is merely the philosophy which teaches that it is inefficient, counter-productive, and unethical to attempt the allocation of resources and the production of goods and services through violence and coercion. It is human action in its necessary and proper framework: cooperation. To assert that libertarianism implies no compassion is to assert that compassion is only accomplished through the initiation of violence or threat of same.

[montecristo.livejournal.com]

What do you say?
I think it is a good idea, in principle. The devil, though, is in the details.

And the critics of libertarianism, do they think this project poses a threat that people might actually see a successful libertarian example and start embracing libertarianism in larger numbers?
I think that there are some species of critics of libertarianism who are absolutely beside themselves with terror at the thought that the world might see a freer society prosper and that this prosperity be rightly attributed to the embrace of the libertarian idea. I think that there are plenty of people who would rather live in bitter vindication in dystopia than see social interactions improve on the basis of the acceptance of libertarian philosophy and be forced by evidence to admit that their worldview is the unfortunate consequence of a limited imagination and a damaged psyche's value scale distortions.

Is a project like this, and other such ideas, the precursor to these changes?
Oh yeah. If there there are two constants, long term, in the course of human history, they are that human action has steadilly caused the capital base to grow and compound and that the division of labor network has grown, become more complex, and diversified. The consequences of these two interrelated phenomena are that human beings have been driven to embrace freedom and the non-initiation paradigm by the growing oportunity costs of doing otherwise. This process will continue as long as human beings strive to improve their quality of life through cooperation. Freedom and the pursuit of happiness are consequences inseparable from human nature.

Is it just a bold but naive attempt to social escapism that is unsustainable in the long run?
It might be. As I said, the devil is in the details. The collapse of such an attempt would not, in and of itself, invalidate libertarian philosophy, anymore than the collapse of the Soviet Union, in and of itself, invalidated Communism and Socialism. These events would only be potentially evidence. There would have to be a philosophical theory that explained and predicted the collapse for it to represent credible evidence. It is the Economic Calculation Problem and the tennets of Praxeology which give meaning and the connecting conceptual framework between cause and effect that renders the Soviet collapse into an understandable example of the failure of command and control social organization. I don't think the cultists who embrace the superstition of the Efficacy of Force can muster a theoretical undestanding that would fit the bill, in the case of libertarianism.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

Actually the USSR's *rise* invalidated Communism far more than its fall did. Communism was always and forever to only work in industrial states with a working class. There's no mention of farming anywhere for a damn good reason. In fact Marx himself said that a Communist Revolution in Russia was an unthinkable phenomenon. And then in the real world communism was used as a means to create industrial sectors and industrialize without having to compromise democracy or really the framework of huge, populated, vast imperial civilizations.

[montecristo.livejournal.com]

If you see such a project actually working just fine, and being a success, and if it matches your personal understanding of a better society, would you venture to join it?

I certainly would consider it. It would depend on quite a lot of factors involving all sorts of trade-offs and opportunity costs, so it would depend upon the details, as to whether I considered it worth it to emigrate to such a society. Generally speaking though, voluntary cooperation achieves a greater and more widespread production of goods and services, raising the quality of life for all participants. The better it succeeded the more tempting it would be to join the project.

[montecristo.livejournal.com]

I would point out that "The Young Turks" show is exhibiting an enormous ignorance or else are being deliberately disingenuous to prop up their own sagging moral beliefs. Only the those weak and insecure in their philosophical position must resort to erecting a strawman and misrepresenting their opponents. The libertarian philosophy is not the position of no rules; it is the position of no rulers. There is a clear distinction between those two concepts.

[anfalicious.livejournal.com]

So are you suggesting that there would either be building laws, even though the designers say there won't be, or are you positing some other magical solution for not having an abattoir set up next door?

[policraticus.livejournal.com]

I've got two words for Mr Theil.

Brook Farm.

[tcpip.livejournal.com]

Peter Thiel is planning to create a sovereign country on those islands.

Yeah, I just bet he reckons that the oceans are his to do what he wants.

[ddstory.livejournal.com]

What I find more curious is how he plans to protect this country. Probably it will rely on protection from the US, which makes things a bit ironic.

[udoswald.livejournal.com]

As long as the US Government promises not to provide any aid to these people, I'm fine with it. Let them all remove themselves from society, we'll be better off. That being said, if their little Galt's Gulch gets decimated by a hurricane or attacked by pirates, don't expect help from us.

Also, I can't imagine you're going to get too many poor people to make the trek more than 100 miles out to see, to work as janitors and other thankless jobs that rich people won't do, just to be treated like garbage and paid slave wages. I guess some CEO somewhere's going to have to empty the trash.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

Or alternately it could be like Dubai and become one of the largest modern slaveholding powers in the 21st Century.......and to make matters more amusing I almost bet some dipshit that'd advocate that would be waving the Confederate battle flag while defending *that* concept of property rights.