(no subject)

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

How do we quantify how hard someone works?

Let's eliminate the notion of MONEY for a minute. Let's simply think about LABOR. Is it harder to work to be a brick-layer or a brain surgeon?

I would venture that being a brain surgeon is tougher than being a brick layer. More nuance required, more training, more precision. Not to say that the brick-layer isn't working, or even working hard, but I'd venture a guess that the brain surgeon had to work harder to get there than the brick-layer did. So while the brick-layer definitely needs compensation for his work (building buildings is an important activity and ought be rewarded!) we can imagine that the compensation for the brain surgeon might be bigger.

But this is a simple example.

How would we compare the work of a schoolteacher and a firefighter? Or a customer service rep vs a janitor? A stage technician and the actor who goes on said stage? Or a CEO and a truck driver? An airplane pilot and a manager at McDonalds?

All of the endless comparisons we could make, I find, baffling. I don't quite understand how we could quantify the difficulty of certain labors.

Yet I'm gonna go ahead and ignore that difficulty for just a minute. Let's return to our world, where we have money.

I [feel like] I work hard. I have a full time job. I work 45-50 hours most weeks. I'd say that usually about 3-4x a year I work seven day work-weeks, sometimes for two weeks in a row. Those paychecks are definitely better than my average paycheck, and yet, I'm still pulling in under 30K a year.

please explain to me how ANYBODY ON THE PLANET works 1,000 times as hard as I do.

Cause, ya know, all those rich folks, they worked hard for their money. That's why they deserve it.
They deserve to earn more in a year than I will in a lifetime. That's because of their hard work.

So:

A) how do you quantify the difficulty of labor?
B) how does someone work 1000x as hard as a hard working school teacher*?


*I am not a school teacher, but both my parents were teachers, my sister was a teacher for a short time (now on her way to becoming a veterinarian) and i dated a NYC school teacher for a year [hot for teacher!], so while school teachers make more than me, they don't make all that much, this much i know

Comments

[nairiporter.livejournal.com]

[hot for teacher!]

Come on, now...

[telemann.livejournal.com]

It's a Van Halen reference.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

sorry. some of me still misses her. :/

[abomvubuso.livejournal.com]

There are exceptions, of course ;)

[agk-ru.livejournal.com]

**how does someone work 1000x as hard as a hard working school teacher?**
This seems to be a rhetorical question.

The processes of petrification and isolation of the upper strata of the super rich is marching on in the entire world. It is all very dangerous.

[ddstory.livejournal.com]

What could go wrong? Just a revolution maybe.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

If we are to follow the experiment's guidelines then labor should be rated on a framework of social utilitarianism. In this sense both teachers and manual laborers would receive enormous sums of money, as would people like firefighters, police officers, and soldiers. For that matter so would people like farmers, ranchers, garbagemen, people who do the vital but usually neglected jobs that keep civilization running.

The social surplus of people who do things like entertainment that contributes nothing more amusing than that would be paid bupkiss.

[ytterbius.livejournal.com]

"people who do things like entertainment"

I've been thinking of late (particularly in terms of video games, but could also be applied to sports and such) that a value to society of entertainment is simply to keep a large number of people occupied in their spare time, and out of trouble. Idle hands and all that...

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

Well, there's a value to entertainment. I do think that all work and no play make Johnny go crazy.

That said, we do overpay actors and sports players. None of em need $20M per movie or sports season.

[pastorlenny.livejournal.com]

Strawman. No one claims that someone makes 1000x because they work 1000x harder.

[telemann.livejournal.com]

I never understood the "I get paid for the RESPONSIBILITY of my job." If that's true, then the President is severely underpaid, after all the guy can essentially launch 1000s of nuclear missiles and kill billions of people.

[jerseycajun.livejournal.com]

"Yet I'm gonna go ahead and ignore that difficulty for just a minute. Let's return to our world, where we have money."

"Our world" is the practical one where that difficulty cannot be ignored, and must be acknowledged for the subjective quality that it must own.

I imagine though, that the entirety of value placed on work done isn't all about difficulty, but also about scarcity among other things. If there aren't many people with a certain skill set or experience that is in demand, then the price of the labor will be affected.

"But this is a simple example."

There is precious little that can be examined with simple examples in complex societies.

The problem in the analysis is reducing the factors that go into the price of labor to just one element: difficulty.

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

Excellent comment.

[harry-beast.livejournal.com]

It is really the difficulty of labour that you want to quantify? Paying people based on how much they suffer in their jobs sounds a bit perverse. Employees would constantly be lobbying and striking for more demanding and unsafe working conditions, and trying to transfer into toxic companies with mean bosses. Universities would start cranking out graduates in sadism and masochism. On the other hand, all those jobs that "Americans won't do" would now pay top dollar, while the cushy jobs would all be filled with foreigners making below minimum wage.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

labor doesn't equal suffering.

I'll bet you that many a school teacher does a LABOR OF LOVE while they teach.

That doesn't mean it's not difficult.

The rest of your comment is hogwash.

[ytterbius.livejournal.com]

What I want to know is if a CEO supposedly gets paid for performance, then if the company loses money, then shouldn't the CEO make nothing, or less than nothing? Yes off-topic...

[harry-beast.livejournal.com]

That reasoning would only apply if their employment contract makes that provision. Often, it doesn't.

[allhatnocattle.livejournal.com]

Value in capitalism isn't based on effort or suffering or responsibility or difficulty. It's based on supply and demand.

It is incredibly difficult to produce one liter/gallon of gasoline. It is easier to produce a gallon/liter of milk. But milk costs at least twice as much. Why?

Well there are a number of contributing factors, including distribution network, taxes, subsidization, and a lot of stuff I have no idea about. It has to do with supply and demand to a degree. But mostly it's about what the market will bear. Consumers are not willing to pay X$ for gas, but are willing to pay X$ for milk. I mean we could raise American gasoline to what Europeans pay (like double), and many Americans would indeed pay that amount. But not all. And the economy over-all would suffer. Well, supposedly anyways.

Labour wages are the same. There are way far too many teachers for the number of positions available. I mean just about any nitwit could teach grade two satisfactorily. But University/College profs are compensated with higher wages, not only due to fewer people with required qualifications, but fewer people able to do the job to the degree consumers demand.

Who else can do Oprah's job? Well, even I can sit and chat with Dr Oz. But only Oprah can be Oprah on TV. And then do all the executive/production nonsense she does. Her wages and other compensation reflects that.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

One of my philosophy profs at SUNY told me he made under 35K a year.

He specialized in ancient chinese philosophy. Xunzi, to be more specific.

True, it was his third year teaching at the school, I imagine after 30 years he'd be making more, but the point remains.

Work smarter, not harder

[korean-guy-01.livejournal.com]

The first step to making more money is being above average in mathematics.

Re: Work smarter, not harder

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

DailyQuot'd!

[oslo.livejournal.com]

Cause, ya know, all those rich folks, they worked hard for their money. That's why they deserve it. They deserve to earn more in a year than I will in a lifetime. That's because of their hard work.

Would you say that a brain surgeon, who earns, say, 400% of what you make every year, works at least 400% as hard as you?

Ultimately, I think it's hard to say anything categorical about the compensation of the wealthiest Americans. Some of them derive most of their income from investment, which one wouldn't necessarily expect to track the amount of effort put into investing activities. Others receive large compensation packages that consist of salary, yearly bonuses, and then perhaps some sort of options to buy equity in the company for which they work. Those people probably work reasonably hard and may or may not have to deal with more uncertainty about their tenure and personal liability to the company's shareholders than your typical hourly-wage worker. They also probably get the benefit of being on a first-name basis with the members of the board approving their compensation, the perceived prestige of the position, and who knows what other kinds of scratch-my-back, I'l-scratch-yours type of arrangements. And then there are people who work maybe not 1000 times as hard as you do (and I'm not sure that many people make $30M/year in salary alone) but make at least a few times your salary, and who are able to receive that compensation because that's what people are willing to pay for it.

Anyway, why does it matter whether they "deserve" it? I would say everyone "deserves" at minimum a living wage that gives them sufficient economic security that their lives are not defined by their needs. But that's not what the free market gives us. So, I would say, tax the people who make lots of money, regardless of whether they "deserve" it, and use that tax revenue to provide everyone the kind of minimum economic security they "deserve."

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

"Anyway, why does it matter whether they "deserve" it?"

because some people use the argument that those with lots of money deserve it because they work hard. i was arguing against such a view.

It's possible that a brain surgeon, who to become a brain surgeon had to spend many more years studying to do what he did than I did, who also is in the position to directly save lives, may well deserve his 400% of my salary.

Putting years into the ability to perform a complex task is considered in the task. I've put years of training into my work, a brain surgeon has put more years in [i should hope]

400% is very different than 40,000%

"In March 2009, Forbes reported Michael Bloomberg's wealth at $16 billion, a gain of $4.5 billion over the previous year, enjoying the world's biggest increase in wealth in 2009"

4.5 billion dollars in a year. if i make 45K a year, that's still.....100,000%.

And again my argument is for those who view that he deserved it.

[sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com]

"How do we quantify how hard someone works?"

This is the 64,000 dollar question. If someone could come up with a consistant, widely acceptable answer many of out social ill would disapear over-night.

The problem is that thus far an answer has not been forthcoming.

As such we defualt to the old "idiots definintion of value". That anything(be it goods or labor) is worth exactly what some idiot is willing to pay for it.

Farmers are poor because people like and depend on cheap grain.

Actors/Actresses make millions because people are willing to pay them millions.

[telemann.livejournal.com]

Farmers are poor because people like and depend on cheap grain.

Dude, farming is the next bubble. Time had a big article on how much money is to be had in them fields. Record profits for some of them. Nebraska is sowing its oats ;)

Want to Make More than a Banker? Become a Farmer! (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2080767,00.html)

[stewstewstewdio.livejournal.com]

Let's eliminate the notion of MONEY for a minute.
No.

They deserve to earn more in a year than I will in a lifetime. That's because of their hard work.
The compensation model is theoretically built on a responsibility model. The people that stand to lose the most financially due to an error are the ones that theoretically get compensated the best.

The extent that work is hard is based on the immediate toll it takes on ones emotional, mental or physical state.

[policraticus.livejournal.com]

It isn't just how hard you work, it is also what you produce and how society values your product.

A teacher educates as best they can. A brain surgeon cuts the malignant tumor out of your cerebellum. We value these things differently.

[eracerhead.livejournal.com]

Working hard is for fools. I know your mama never told you that. The key to success is figuring out how to maximize your income while doing the least amount of work possible. On balance, people who make shitloads of money actually work very little, or if they do work a lot, it isn't really work, it's play.

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

And we're back to people needing to read the Leisure Theory of Value (http://www.mib.org/~gunslngr/leisure.html).

[malakh-abaddon.livejournal.com]

Every job is hard work in its own right. A brain surgeon's job is hard mentally, a bricklayer's job is hard physically, security officer's job (depending on their situation) is hard due to stress, a truck driver's job is hard because of the hours spent on the road driving.

Here is my take on it, those that work, work hard for their money. As for a surgeon making x amount of dollars more than I do, it does not really matter. If he is cutting into the skull of a family member, or myself, I want him well paid, I want him happy with the pay, I want him happy to be doing the job. I do not want his mind on financial problems, because he is making too little, and cannot afford to live where he works. That goes with every other job. Looking at the bricklayer, if he is thinking about how he is going to get gas for work, or food for his kids, he might screw up on something important, and there goes my house.

As for working... I went from 40 hours a week to 35 hours a week, back to 38 hours a week, to 14 hours a week with a full time job, that is part time, while making less than a dollar over minimum wage, and being a supervisor. Anyway I digress, and I need to get job hunting.

[nevermind6794.livejournal.com]

I wonder if thinking in sabermetrics provides a useful answer to this question. What's a worker's value over replacement worker (analogous to VORP)? How much value does that worker produce to begin with (runs created)?

I eagerly await ESPN's series on Jeff Immelt's win shares.

[peristaltor.livejournal.com]

I've often given just this thought some thinky time. So far, I've engaged in various careers with various levels of suffering. As a ship captain, I got paid for driving boats. It turns out a lot of people pay for that privilege. Same goes for airline pilots; a good friend spends thousands a year just to keep his non-commercial private license and tiny airplane current.

Driving on-road vehicles? Everyone does that. As a result, on-road driving can be lucrative, far more than driving boats, as I've discovered.

This is why the notion of neglecting the money aspect of labor proves problematic. Money introduces labor to the labor market. Yes, a bricklayer suffers in his labor just does a brain surgeon; but far fewer can become a brain surgeon, therefore the market for the job is severely restricted.

So the question is not how hard you or I work; it's how open our jobs are to competition from other workers, and therefore to a lack of negotiating authority when we bid to do our labors. By contrast, bankers on Wall St. make stupid money not necessarily because they are good at their jobs, but because the banks need to divest themselves of the cash they make lest they have to pay too many taxes on it. The competition lies in gettting and keeping those jobs.

Hey, all five of my folks* are either teaching or retired, so I feel your upbringing pain. We were poor.


*Loooong story.