Trends

[badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com]

An interesting finding in recent polling on social issues. I'll let this piece give the details:

Americans are now evenly split on same-sex marriage: 47 percent support marriage rights for gays and lesbians, and 47 percent oppose them. That stalemate won't last long—critics of gay unions are dying off. According to a new report from the Public Religion Research Institute, only 31 percent of Americans over age 65 support gays getting hitched, compared to 62 percent of Americans under 30.

But strong millennial support for gay marriage has not translated into an uptick in acceptance of other sexual freedoms, like the right to an abortion. The Public Religion Research Institute notes that popular support for keeping abortion legal has dipped a percentage point since 1999, and young Americans are not swelling the ranks of abortion rights supporters. Today, while 57 percent of people under 30 see gay sex as "morally acceptable," only 46 percent of them would say the same thing about having an abortion.

The institute calls this a "decoupling of attitudes." Support for same-sex marriage and abortion rights have traditionally gone hand-in-hand, and that's changing. Though young people today are "more educated, more liberal, and more likely to be religiously unaffiliated" than their parents—all factors traditionally correlated with support of abortion rights—they are not actually more likely to support abortion.

The article goes on to give some reasons as to why this decoupling is occurring, but I believe the issue is much more simple than that - gay marriage, as it is, has been a reality for millennials (folks ages 19-29) for most of their politically/socially aware lives now, and they see quite clearly how the issue really doesn't matter - gay people getting married doesn't impact their straight marriages, or their lives at all, really. There's no harm involved. The difference with abortion is that the harm involved remains self-evident - at the end of the day, we know how many abortions occur, and such "decoupling," as it were, likely reflects that difference. I also speculate that many do not see the abortion issue as one of "rights," but rather one of life. That those who self-identify as pro-life remains competitive ideologically with those who self-identify as pro-choice for the first time in a while may be a sign of that.

Why do you think these issues are separating? Should they truly be falling under the same social umbrella? What am I missing here?

Comments

[luvdovz.livejournal.com]

You don't think that it is. You, as in "the person - you". And that's my point. When a pre-conceived notion completely stifles debate, then debate doesn't happen. And that's my entire point - I want to debate things, rather than wrapping myself with like-minded people in an echo-chamber.

I may be sharing your opinion on the particular issue of abortion. But that's irrelevant for the purposes of this conversation.

[curseangel.livejournal.com]

So... what, exactly? Communities should coddle and accommodate people with offensive and bigoted opinions just because that's their "opinion"? Even if those people are actively seeking to deny those selfsame community members their rights? Bullshit. Bullshit. Women shouldn't be obligated to tolerate sexism in their communities.

I'm not saying people can't debate those issues, or what-the-fuck-ever. But no one is obligated to sit down and have a debate with someone who is spewing offensive, gross garbage. Especially not women in a feminist community who have someone coming in going "you know what, I don't think you women deserve the right of bodily autonomy after all! BUT THAT'S JUST MY OPINION LULZ." They absolutely have the right to tell that person to get the fuck out of their community and come back when they're less of sexist douchebags.

Or well, that's my opinion. It wouldn't be the first time I've gotten shit for refusing to "tolerate" anti-choice opinions. But as far as I'm concerned, if you're anti-choice you're anti-woman, and if you're anti-woman, you're anti-me (being a woman). And well, would you be friends with someone who was anti-you? Didn't think so.

[luvdovz.livejournal.com]

For the 6th time, I'm not talking about offensive opinions. I'm talking about opinions differing from those of the majority. You and I seem to keep talking about two different things, and this is kind of exhausting.

See, I'll give you another example since this one bugs you so much. A guy recently posted a conspiracy theory here about HAARP and some other weird stuff like that. For some it sounded outrageous, for others it was obviously done for fun, and for third ones it was some poor attempt at trolling. 9-11 truthers regularly get a lot of ridicule here, but they don't get yelled to piss off, or banned, or insulted with names (if they receive something like this, they get defended by the mods). Are you getting my drift?

[curseangel.livejournal.com]

Except, see, when you're talking about people being anti-abortion and shit, you are talking about offensive opinions, because being anti-abortion is offensive towards women, it is offensive because it is sexist. This should not be a difficult concept to grasp. Being anti-abortion = being sexist. Ergo, being anti-abortion = FUCKING OFFENSIVE.

General political debate communities like this aren't what I'm talking about here, though. We were, very specifically, discussing feminist communities. Feminist communities are absolutely within their rights to ridicule, yell at / insult, and even, yes, ban misogynists (which, yeah, again, anti-abortion..). Many also ban for racist, homophobic, or other -ist behavior/opinions/etc. Those groups may be about debate, but many are not allowing of any and all opinions no matter how offensive they may be. They shouldn't have to be.

Anyway, um, in no other community I'm part of is "play nice" an actual rule that I'm aware of. People get mad sometimes when people bring up bullshit, offensive opinions, and react accordingly. Just because a lot of people do so doesn't mean the community is a "hivemind" or some such shit -- it means someone said something offensive and, gaspshock, a lot of people were offended/angered.

Sorry if this is yet more circular arguing, but you don't seem to grasp that what you're trying to pose as a simple "difference of opinion" actually IS something that is OFFENSIVE, and I don't know how to explain that any more clearly. Also it's 8am, and I haven't slept, so that might be hurting things. I'm going to go get some sleep now, I'm trying to get up and see if I can catch them filming The Avengers later today. Squee an' all. Cheers.

[badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com]

Sorry if this is yet more circular arguing, but you don't seem to grasp that what you're trying to pose as a simple "difference of opinion" actually IS something that is OFFENSIVE, and I don't know how to explain that any more clearly.

That's a fairly fringe viewpoint to hold. You do realize that, right?

[luvdovz.livejournal.com]

I'm not talking about abortion any more.

Fair enough, obviously those sort of communities have set some frames within which debate can occur, and they deem anything outside those frames inappropriate. Good. That's why I'm not interested in them in the first place. It's really that simple.

Get some sleep. Cheers.

[curseangel.livejournal.com]

Fair enough, obviously those sort of communities have set some frames within which debate can occur, and they deem anything outside those frames inappropriate.

That's basically what I was trying to say the whole time, jfc.

[luvdovz.livejournal.com]

On a side note, I don't see what this has to do with "friends" at all. Political forums are supposed to be an arena for political debate, not seeking friends. I thought "Add_Me" and "Pen_Friends" are for that.

[curseangel.livejournal.com]

As I said above, wasn't talking about purely political take-all-comers comms like this, but actual feminist communities.

The "friends" thing was just me talking about my personal views, and how they mesh into this kind of thing, ha. Like, "comms get shit for XYZ, and I have before too in my personal life."

[luvdovz.livejournal.com]

Question of curiosity. Do you choose your friends according to their political views and the level to which their opinions match yours?

[curseangel.livejournal.com]

No, of course not. However, I'm a very outspoken feminist and pro-choice activist, so conservative folk tend not to friend me. I do actively confront people in my life who are, well, bigoted or awful in some way, too, sooo... yeah.

Anyway, uh, I tend not to run in circles that are conservative, etc. TBH, being friends with someone very socially conservative wouldn't ever work for me - I consider views like being anti-abortion or anti-gay marriage inherently offensive. This tends not to mesh well with friendships, and given how I view those issues... well, I'm pretty okay with that.