Fighting extremism
27/8/11 15:04![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
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talkpoliticsRemotely related to the monthly topic, comes this TED Talk lecture by Maajid Nawaz. Here he discusses the question about the root causes for extremism. His point is that, no matter if we are talking about far-right or religious extremist organisations (Islamist, or otherwise), there are some complex reasons why they have so much success in the conditions of a globalised world, compared to the moderate majority who embrace democratic values and who, unfortunately, are falling far behind.
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The four main reasons that he lists are these.
1. Complacency.
2. Political correctness.
3. Political and economic failure.
4. Ideology of resistance.
This guy's insights on the matter are particularly valuable, as he himself is a self-admitted former Islamic extremist. For more than a decade he was part of an extremist organisation, trying to overthrow governments in the Middle East. He ended up with a 5 year sentence which he served in an Egyptian jail.
He is telling the story about how the way people perceive themselves and identify themselves has changed over time. For example in the Middle Ages, people thought of themselves as being "from" some religious group, then in the 19th century with the ascent of the concept of the Nation State, people started talking about themselves as being "from" a nation or an ethnic group. And nowadays they are regarded as citizens "of" a country, despite their specific ethnicity or religious belonging.
Further on, he argues that individual identity is transcending the "citizen" and is entering the so-called "Age of behaviour", where people's ideas and stories that determine their allegiances and behavioural patterns are being re-defined. This is not always a good thing, because those who are benefiting the most from this tendency of social interaction without borders, are at present, the extremists. Meanwhile, the moderate majority has been lagging behind in their inability to formulate coherent ideology of their own, which they could put as a counter-balance to the rising extremism. In this sense he is digging much deeper into the root causes for extremism than most analysts tend to venture, while many are focusing on the symptoms and external manifestations of these extremist tendencies, rather than the very reason they are there.
One thing that far-right extremism and Islamic extremism have in common is the highly effective way they communicate regardless of country borders. They use all the tools of modern communication technology, they organise their actions and spread their narrative through the powerful medium of the Internet. In this sense, the globalisation of communication has benefited them greatly, and now they are not small, isolated groups on the fringe, but are moving more into the mainstream.
One important distinction that should be emphasised is that Islamist extremism and Islam as a religious system are two very different things. And also Islam-the-religion, and Islam as a political doctrine.
The reason why the values of democracy are lagging so badly behind extremism these days, he argues, is that the people who share the democratic values, have not yet come to grips with the conclusion that we live in the "Age of behaviour", and are failing in adapting to the new realities of a world dominated by trans-national social movements, as opposed to the entrenched partisan ideologies of the near past.
And lastly, he dissects these social movements of modern time, and describes four main components that they consist of: Ideas, Narratives, Symbols, and Leaders. If a group, or a society adhering to certain values and ideas, and pursuing a certain agenda, is lacking in any one of those four areas, it is doomed to failure, or at least to a major lag behind its counterparts and rivals. Which has been the case with the proponents for democracy.
Needless to say, I strongly recommend watching this lecture.
[Error: unknown template video]
The four main reasons that he lists are these.
1. Complacency.
2. Political correctness.
3. Political and economic failure.
4. Ideology of resistance.
This guy's insights on the matter are particularly valuable, as he himself is a self-admitted former Islamic extremist. For more than a decade he was part of an extremist organisation, trying to overthrow governments in the Middle East. He ended up with a 5 year sentence which he served in an Egyptian jail.
He is telling the story about how the way people perceive themselves and identify themselves has changed over time. For example in the Middle Ages, people thought of themselves as being "from" some religious group, then in the 19th century with the ascent of the concept of the Nation State, people started talking about themselves as being "from" a nation or an ethnic group. And nowadays they are regarded as citizens "of" a country, despite their specific ethnicity or religious belonging.
Further on, he argues that individual identity is transcending the "citizen" and is entering the so-called "Age of behaviour", where people's ideas and stories that determine their allegiances and behavioural patterns are being re-defined. This is not always a good thing, because those who are benefiting the most from this tendency of social interaction without borders, are at present, the extremists. Meanwhile, the moderate majority has been lagging behind in their inability to formulate coherent ideology of their own, which they could put as a counter-balance to the rising extremism. In this sense he is digging much deeper into the root causes for extremism than most analysts tend to venture, while many are focusing on the symptoms and external manifestations of these extremist tendencies, rather than the very reason they are there.
One thing that far-right extremism and Islamic extremism have in common is the highly effective way they communicate regardless of country borders. They use all the tools of modern communication technology, they organise their actions and spread their narrative through the powerful medium of the Internet. In this sense, the globalisation of communication has benefited them greatly, and now they are not small, isolated groups on the fringe, but are moving more into the mainstream.
One important distinction that should be emphasised is that Islamist extremism and Islam as a religious system are two very different things. And also Islam-the-religion, and Islam as a political doctrine.
The reason why the values of democracy are lagging so badly behind extremism these days, he argues, is that the people who share the democratic values, have not yet come to grips with the conclusion that we live in the "Age of behaviour", and are failing in adapting to the new realities of a world dominated by trans-national social movements, as opposed to the entrenched partisan ideologies of the near past.
And lastly, he dissects these social movements of modern time, and describes four main components that they consist of: Ideas, Narratives, Symbols, and Leaders. If a group, or a society adhering to certain values and ideas, and pursuing a certain agenda, is lacking in any one of those four areas, it is doomed to failure, or at least to a major lag behind its counterparts and rivals. Which has been the case with the proponents for democracy.
Needless to say, I strongly recommend watching this lecture.
(no subject)
Date: 27/8/11 17:31 (UTC)Evidence?
And if we take the persons word without video, who is "they"?
It certainly wasn't coming from the speakers.
"Some don't want a black man in office"
Evidence?
And do you really think there aren't any democrats with the same opinion? Does that mean the democrats are racist?
"a large portion don't want a Muslim in office and believe that Obama is a Muslim.
"
I'm sure you could cite the poll that determined that one.
(no subject)
Date: 27/8/11 18:20 (UTC)What about this pic?
I know, I know. It's some obscure guy, doesn't count.
OK, does the name Dale Robertson (http://washingtonindependent.com/73036/n-word-sign-dogs-would-be-tea-party-leader) speak to you? I find him quite intriguing.
Hey, these are not tea partiers. Not really.
But even if they are, they're just some obscure guys, OK? Got it.
Hey wait, there's more...
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There is absolutely no racism (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LMmx-znVZc) in the tea party. None whatsoever.
By the way, does the name Mark Williams (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/15/tea-party-leader-melts-do_n_286933.html) speak to you? He's not some obscure average schmuck. He (used to be) a tea party leader. Got kicked out for guess what? - racist remarks. Commendable.
Granted, because the other side of the issue should also be presented (a thing I've yet to see a tea-partier do yet), the NAACP has called for a total repudiation of all racism in the tea party. And Mark Williams got expelled from their ranks. Commendable. We do know, however, that the tea party is about individualism, right? So you can't tell them what to feel and say. So they'll feel and say whatever the damn they please, and that's commendable, isn't it?
So, no matter how hard you try to deny it, racism *DOES* exist within the tea party, and you've got to be in some major denial, or living in a cave, to say it isn't so. Hell, one could see that from 10,000 miles away.
Now, whether racism is mainstream for the tea party or not... I don't know? What does "mainstream" really mean in the context of the tea party, does it make sense at all? Does the tea party have Mainstream? And if yes, wouldn't that defeat its very purpose?
Wait, it's not like (http://blogs.ajc.com/cynthia-tucker/2010/05/06/a-black-tea-party-supporter-offers-advice-on-the-movements-struggle-with-racism/) there aren't African Americans in the tea party - sure there are! Some of them have even come up with suggestions about dealing with racism within the tea party - commendable! But wait... does this mean they acknowledge its existence? I'm now confused...
As for your last question,
I'm not (http://www.politico.com/blogs/joshgerstein/0810/Poll_46_of_GOP_thinks_Obamas_Muslim.html) sure exactly how (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/18/AR2010081806913.html) many people (http://people-press.org/2010/08/19/growing-number-of-americans-say-obama-is-a-muslim/) believe that he's (http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2008-04-01-obama-muslim_N.htm) a Muslim. 10% of all Americans? 23% (http://www.chron.com/life/houston-belief/article/Poll-finds-23-of-Texans-think-Obama-is-Muslim-1620902.php) of all Texans? 46% of all GOP supporters? Come on, help me out.
(no subject)
Date: 27/8/11 18:35 (UTC)That's the other side from what you're saying?
"We do know, however, that the tea party is about individualism, right? So you can't tell them what to feel and say. So they'll feel and say whatever the damn they please, and that's commendable, isn't it?"
That's a bad thing?
Thanks for the double lulz.
"He (used to be) a tea party leader. Got kicked out for guess what? - racist remarks."
That backs up the claim you're making here?
"10% of all Americans? 23% of all Texans? 46% of all GOP supporters? Come on, help me out."
That doesn't quite mention the tea party, does it?
And your last poll says "Fourteen percent of all Republicans, 10% of Democrats and 8% of independents think he's Muslim, according to the survey."
(no subject)
Date: 27/8/11 18:48 (UTC)Yes it backs up the claim that there's racism there - he manifested it, and because they were embarrassed, they got rid of him. There are elections coming, you know?
Yes but your question was if there's evidence on the "a large portion don't want a Muslim in office and believe that Obama is a Muslim" - the tea party hasn't been mentioned there either, has it? So does a chunk of the population, or does it not, believe he's Muslim? And is there or is there not any racism in the tea party? That's the question. You can try with an answer, or you could keep moving the goalposts.
(no subject)
Date: 27/8/11 19:06 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 27/8/11 19:13 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 27/8/11 22:49 (UTC)Borderline paranoid delusional. Its also the fallacy Sandwichwarrior posted as "begging the question".
"Yes but your question was ... That's the question. You can try with an answer, or you could keep moving the goalposts"
You're quite good at fooling yourself.
(no subject)
Date: 27/8/11 22:51 (UTC)That doesn't even mean anything. It's just a cheap trick in attempt to dodge a question.
(no subject)
Date: 27/8/11 23:16 (UTC)As to the absurd "is there or is there not any racism in the tea party" question, I'd say every party has racist members in it.
"Were they embarrassed by his remarks or not, and if not, then why did they kick him out?"
I would think any party, and most any organization, would be embarrassed by such remarks by one of its members. It certainly wouldn't be proof that the organization is racist, just that one of its (former) members is. And it's not on online-induced name, it's a standard term that's been around for 100's of years.
(no subject)
Date: 27/8/11 23:19 (UTC)I never said the organization is racist. My point is that there is racism in that organization. Are you able to distinguish between nuances?
(no subject)
Date: 27/8/11 23:27 (UTC)Well, that was the point of this thread. Are you able to comprehend what you read?
"I'd say every party has racist members in it."
That was me, last comment, so if your point was that there are racists in the tea party, I think it should be clear that I agree.
(no subject)
Date: 27/8/11 23:29 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 27/8/11 23:22 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 27/8/11 23:23 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 28/8/11 18:35 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 27/8/11 23:09 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 27/8/11 23:22 (UTC)And his links didn't mention anything about the percentage of the tea party that thinks Obama is a muslim (and none mentioned anything about not wanting a muslim in office). One link did say "Fourteen percent of all Republicans, 10% of Democrats and 8% of independents think he's Muslim, according to the survey."
"continue living in your fairy land"
Now how did that phrase come to mind?
(no subject)
Date: 28/8/11 01:24 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 29/8/11 23:39 (UTC)