We won't get fooled again ?

[mintogrubb.livejournal.com]

Thank you tcpip, for the link.


For anyone who cares to look, it is the 'vision' of Libya that the rebels who ousted Gadaffi wanted to create. A draft constitution .

It talks about ' democracy' and pledges support for a pluralist, secular state. It makes a declaration for women's equality, and for freedom of expression. seriously, i thought to myself, there is a lot to like.

And then I got to clause 7, and it said
7. Political democracy and the values of social justice, which include:

a. The nation’s economy to be used for the benefit of the Libyan people by creating effective economic institutions in order to eradicate poverty and unemployment – working towards a healthy society, a green environment and a prosperous economy.

b. The development of genuine economic partnerships between a strong and productive public sector, a free private sector and a supportive and effective civil society, which overstands corruption and waste.

c. Support the use of science and technology for the betterment of society, through investments in education, research and development, thus enabling the encouragement of an innovative culture and enhancing the spirit of creativity. Focus on emphasising individual rights in a way that guarantees social freedoms that were denied to the Libyan people during the rule of dictatorship. In addition to building efficient public and private institutions and funds for social care, integration and solidarity, the state will guarantee the rights and empowerment of women in all legal, political, economic and cultural spheres.

d. A constitutional civil state which respects the sanctity of religious doctrine and condemns intolerance, extremism and violence that are manufactured by certain political, social or economic interests. The state to which we aspire will denounce violence, terrorism, intolerance and cultural isolation; while respecting human rights, rules and principles of citizenship and the rights of minorities and those most vulnerable. Every individual will enjoy the full rights of citizenship, regardless of colour, gender, ethnicity or social status.



I started looking at the small print again.

See, if someone wants to question what I believe in , be it my beliefs as a Socialist or as a Christian , as far as I'm concerned, that is a fair play. I don't ask for my beliefs t be protected by law. But if the new constitution offers special protection to any religious faction , and respect the ' sanctity of religious doctrine' - well what does that mean ? I see that as a bad idea.

See, the draft constitution will not allow discrimination on grounds of race, or gender, but no mention of equality for non Muslims. Now why?
take a look at the link in full if you will-http://www.ntclibya.com/InnerPage.aspx?SSID=4&ParentID=3&LangID=1


There are those who say that it's simply not true that this will be a democratic regime, that they will simply be pawns of the West, or quickly turned into such. Hey, hang on - these guys sent the SAS home, and i think we ought to give them some benefit of the doubt.

But once they omit any reference to religious equality in the new constitution , I hear alarm bells ring. I would hope that this is an oversight, but seriously, do lawyers commit these sorts of mistakes,

So what is it to be for Libya? Are they about to exchange a Secular dictator for an Islamic theocracy? I hope not, but I would not be surprised if it did transpire.

Comments

[tcpip.livejournal.com]

What you're likely to get is a liberal secular Islamic state, which should be about a threatening as a liberal secular Christian state.

The reference are to "A state that draws strength from our strong religious beliefs in peace, truth, justice and equality" and "A constitutional civil state which respects the sanctity of religious doctrine and condemns intolerance, extremism and violence that are manufactured by certain political, social or economic interests."

That's as much as religion is mentioned in the in draft document.

Which really is pretty good considering the region. After all, you're dealing with a population that's 90%+ strongly religious.

[dv8nation.livejournal.com]

Considering the normal state of most of the Middle East this would be a big step. Jeffersonian democarcy isn't everyone's cup of tea.

[the-rukh.livejournal.com]

With Jefferson you're probably better off saying everyone's keg of beer.

[dv8nation.livejournal.com]

The Founders did indeed like their booze.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

Fortunately. Most states would be very bad off under an incompetent reactionary who missed the entire way things were going and self-destructed his country's military.

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

It doesn't look like a constitution that would bring about an Islamic theocracy to me. If it did happen, it would be in spite of it, not because of it.

[mintogrubb.livejournal.com]

what concerns me is that there is a clause that states

Every individual will enjoy the full rights of citizenship, regardless of colour, gender, ethnicity or social status.

I note that colour and race are included, but not religion. ooh -er. like i say, i hope it's just an oversight...

[mrsilence.livejournal.com]

I doubt that it's not deliberate.

They're a nation of Muslims, who largely believe that Islam is the appropriate model of behaviour and doing right. It should only be expected that they put give Islam, or religion in general an elevated role in their society.

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

I don't have a serious problem with them leaving that out. This is a lot better than what they had and if they can make this work, they'll get around to that later.

[mrsilence.livejournal.com]

That's what I'm reading too.

While "on paper" doesn't necessarily equal outcome, I don't see anything here that doesn't aim to improve on the status quo.

[a-new-machine.livejournal.com]

There's a peculiar view of free speech in the Islamic world that basically puts religion outside the realm of acceptable criticism. I think that criticizing someone's religion is seen more like we would see criticizing someone's skin color in the West. It's not a position I like, but it's not the worst.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

It's not exactly that accepted in the West, either, given the degree to which 80% of the US population regularly claims nasty articles in the press are equivalent to being dinner for the Imperial lions. While in Europe the secularist protestors in Spain have been pretty violently attacked by the pro-Papist ones.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't exactly call the Gadafi dictatorship secular myself. I would also note that anyone who expects a civil war that topples an autocracy will overnight produce a mature Western democracy is either naive, self-deluded, or auf Southron jest plain dumb.

[oportet.livejournal.com]

Judging by the clips I see on the news, they're going to fire all of the ammunition they have up into the air for no fucking reason. Gaddafi should be able to retake the throne in a few weeks.

The important question...

[sophia-sadek.livejournal.com]

Who do you expect the oil concessions will go to? That is where the road hits the rubber.

[harry-beast.livejournal.com]

The oil companies and their governments will soon arrive in force to divide the spoils, each looking for and promoting a champion for themselves among the rebel factions. This may not promote unity, but it's a small price to pay for freedom. France should do all right. Other countries that participated in the air war have a decent shot at a slice of the pie.

[ddstory.livejournal.com]

I was considering commenting on the topic, but since I'm not sure if my comment will survive (remain not deleted, not screened, etc), I think I'll pass.