Eugenics, genetics, your kids and mine...

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

An important question looming on the horizon is: "to what extent can couples determine the genetic make-up of their kids."

I have a simple answer: "It's not evil eugenics if a majority of those with the genetic trait advocate helping future children avoid it. "


For example, I'm quite short, this has not really had a positive impact on my life my husband is tall and I'd be quite happy to let his genes take over the whole height thing. I'd have a similar feeling were I abnormally tall. On the other hand it'd make me angry if someone ruled out darker skin for our child, that'd be cowing to the pressure of racism, I think ... and creepy. (dark skin also protects one from skin cancers and painful sunburns) I don't envy the lengths my husband must go to avoid getting burned. My husband has often been quite cheerful about the prospect of his kids not having a hard time with the sun as he has.

So, I think the solution is to ask people who have these traits if they *want* them passed on or not. In that sense, maybe the "looming question" isn't so big-- most couples will naturally want persevere human diversity, but will not have much interest in saving traits that just make life more difficult.

But of course things are not that simple. Many black folks (for example) might have chosen lighter skin (and some might do so today) to protect their child from racism. I find this depressing and my instinct is to find a way to prevent it. But, should the state have any place in such choices?

There are lots of people who would quickly choose to reduce the chance of their child being gay (I doubt being gay is as simple as a single gene, so mercifully it may not be possible to tamper with this without tampering with other traits) --on the one hand, maybe it's good that gay kids don't end up being born to intolerant people, on the other, there are enough intolerant people that, if the genetics of sexuality were simple enough, we'd probably see a sharp decine in the gay population. I think this is really depressing.

Now I treated the height issue like it was simple, but there are probably some short people who feel differently.

I think we could come up with reasonable laws by asking those who have a given gene what they think about people selecting for it or against it.

And now for a incomplete poll:


[Poll #1768916]

PS. Here is a great documentary that relates to these questions.

Comments

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

Well, I'm 4'11.5" that makes me 1.5 inches too tall to complain in your judgement. How ludicrous!

I mean how did you pick 4'10" ... I think I know, it's the medical borderline for dwarfism. But it's totally arbitrary. It's based on percentiles not quality of life.

There are a (precious few) people who are 4'8" or 4'4" even who love being short, I've met them they can have short kids if they want since they seem to have the skills to cope with it. Good for them! I don't have those skills and I don't want my kid to go through what I did.

If I slouch over maybe you and I will see eye-to-eye on this.

(lol or rather we won't see eye-to-eye... few people see eye to eye with you if you are very short. Talk to enough people in my height range and you'll maybe start to "get it")

[mijan.livejournal.com]

I talk to a lot of people in OUR height range. A good number of my friends (including one of my male friends) are within the 4'10 to 5'1" height range. Only one of them has ever stated that she dislikes being that short (she's a half inch shorter than you)(EDIT: My bad... she's actually 4'10. I just talked to her. And she says the only annoyance about her height is due to the sight-unseen suitors rejecting her based on height only, but she considers it an annoyance... not something that would ruin her life. She figures it's a way to weed out the shallow suitors.), and that's only because of her culture requiring an arranged marriage, and many of the suitors rejected her before even meeting her, just because of her height... despite the fact that she's a highly educated doctor with a wonderful personality, and very pretty.

And yes, I picked 4'10" because of the medical definition. And sure, it's arbitrary, but it also makes sense... that's the approximate height at which normal function (driving, reaching things) becomes much more difficult. Most things are built to cater to a range of adult heights. You and I (an inch and a half height difference) are still tall enough to reach most things. Drop another two inches, and it would become far more difficult, but even then, it's a spectrum.

Now, come on, you keep saying that being short destroyed your dreams, and that you went through a horrible ordeal because of your height that you would never want your child to suffer through. That's a huge part of your premise of the whole post. COME ON, tell us what part of your life was so tortured by being short. I'd be happy to see eye-to-eye with you. I never wear heeled shoes, either, so that shouldn't be too hard. So please, explain to us why your height has ruined your life and prevented you from reaching your dreams. What did you want to do so badly that you were prevented from achieving?

Oh, also, on a genetic-inheritance note... my mother is 5'8", and my father was 5'10". My younger sister (only sibling) is 5'10". One of my older friends is about my height, has a husband who is only a few inches taller, and their teenage girl is 5'9". Being tall is never a guarantee of having tall kids, but being short is never a guarantee of having short kids.

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

I just really dislike my body. It feels like it's the wrong body or someone else's body. When transexuals talk about having the wrong body I know EXACTLY what they are saying. I have never felt beautiful normal or at home in my body for a single moment of my life mostly because of my height. (but also my weight, but really it's just the way weight relates to height, I suffered from anorexia mostly because I thought if I were only thin enough I'd seem taller. It's like the photo of the rhino on the treadmill looking at the photo of the unicorn. Only it's just sad ... not funny. No amount of dieting will make me taller. I had to go half way to the grave an back just to figure that out.)

There is a huge mis-match between the person I want to see myself as and the person that I am. I remember being about 15 and going to se the doctor. The doctor said something about my height like "How do you feel about being short?" I replied "It's not a big deal when I'm done growing I won't need to put up with this anymore."

The doctor said "well how much more do you think you'll grow?" I was about 4'9" at the time and the shortest in my 4,000 student high school "Oh, about a foot." I said. I was totally serious. Then he told me that I'd be 5'1" or less. I was totally crushed.

Most people insist that I must change my mind to suit my body. They assume this is something superficial. That it's just about looking good. The thing is I don't care how I look to other people. If everyone saw a super short person when they met me, but if I could *feel* normal about that, or feel tall it'd be fine. I've tried this. I would love to be able to do that but it doesn't work. I'm glad to not be as depressed anymore (SSRIs have worked for me) I mostly avoid mirrors and thinking about my body and if I do that I'm OK. I can focus on the many good things in my life. I try not to look at my arms when I'm typing. (I'm just trying to give you an idea of how much this bothers me.)

My mother and father are both short mom is 5' dad is 5'4" they did a pretty good job of hiding it from me but they are not happy either. Nor were any of my grandparents. All four of them were under 5'4" The odd thing is I don't want any of them to change. I like them the way that they are, but I can see that there's this sadness, I see it in my aunts and uncles as well (but only the short ones!)

The only person who is happy with their height is my brother who is 5'8" --he just seems to be so much better of than the rest of us. Oh and a few uncles, all of the medium or tall ones don't have the sadness.

I have often pondered bone extension, but it's so expensive. I know two people who have had it (both from China) and it really improved their lives. They are adamant about this. They look only a little different to me, but it's more about how they feel. So, I don't rule it out. That could be the solution. (for me)

Everyone talks about loving yourself and all of this Mr. Rogers crap but it has never actually applied in my life. I really think that kind of talk is to make the awkwardness that people feel when presented with another person in the grip of toxic self loathing go away. It's against the magical thinking philosophy that it is only whats inside that "counts" to say otherwise. What's outside counts too. We live in these bodies for all the time that we have on earth, if making changes can make us happer that's not superficial, it's important.


I really glad that you are "better adjusted" (as some might say) than I am. Yet, I doubt my kids would be as lucky as you. They would pick up the unhappiness from me, it's not realistic for me to pretend I could hid it from them. Kids learn by watching who we are. I'm certain height will be a fairly simple matter genetically and if that's the case I'll do whatever I can to spare my kids all of this.

[mijan.livejournal.com]

Uh-huh. I see.

I'm genderqueer. I was born with a female body, but I identify as male. In my mind, as I have told many people, I'm a 6'1" man. But really, comparing a dislike of your height to being transgendered? You know EXACTLY what we feel like? *shakes head* The human BRAIN is hardwired for gender identity and sexual attraction, and it's been shown many times that transgendered and gay people's brains show distinct development like the brains of straight people of the opposite biological sex. In contrast, there's no such thing as a "tall brain" or "short brain." You have no idea what we go through, but for the sake of argument, I'll allow the comparison. Your body doesn't match your inner self. That sucks. I get it.

I've been anorexic. I've been bulimic. I've been depressed. I've had major body issues.

So, mark my word, I know what it's like to look in the mirror and have a huge disconnect with what I see. I didn't let it stop me from DOING what I want to do in life. It didn't "keep me from my dreams." From what I can see, your dream is simply to be tall. So... okay, yes, you're right: being short will keep you from being tall. It's a tragedy.

It's not about being "better adjusted." There's a difference between adjusting and having true psychological issues. Clearly, you have the latter. Your height itself didn't ruin your life. Your reaction to it did. And maybe your family's constant negativity (ie. "being short is horrible") added to that. And I fully acknowledge that having a mental or emotional disorder is a serious condition that needs treatment. However, being short is not a disorder, a handicap (within reason), or a condition. If anything, as a person who has more experience with this sort of thing than you might imagine, I'd say you should be more concerned about the genetic links of depression and other mental health conditions. Your height itself isn't the problem. The fact that you're still blaming your height for your poor mental and emotional health means you're putting the cart before the horse.

Yeah, that's right.

The height itself isn't the problem. Clearly, height hasn't PHYSICALLY handicapped you. It emotionally and mentally handicapped you, and your condition is not "because you're short." It's because you are predisposed to emotional/mental health issues. Your height was a trigger, but not the foundation cause of your issues.

Listen, I doubt I will ever be able to physically transition genders (hormones and surgery) because of my medical condition. Whether I do or not, I live in a world where not only does my body not match my mind, but I can also be overtly discriminated against. And yeah, I'm short. And yes, I had severe body image issues and depression. And instead of wallowing in it and pondering the extermination of my genetic lineage because I feared sentencing them to my own misery, I focused on accomplishing things in life that I wanted to do, and be myself, regardless of how the world saw me. I'm not saying that you have to do that, or that you can do it. You're not me.

Just like unrealistic air-brushed models and ludicrous standards of fashion turn young girls into anorexic basket cases, some psychological (societal, familial, whatever) pressure triggered you into obsessing about your height. I'm sorry you've suffered through that. I seriously am. I'm sure it's been hell, and that you've been emotionally torn apart by this. I empathize... these conditions are damaging and horrible. But I say again... it wasn't caused by your height.

Reassess what the root of your problem really is. Your height hasn't held you back from anything. But it seems that a very real underlying mental health condition has wreaked havoc on your life. For THAT, I feel deep sympathy for you. But not for your height.

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

Listen, I doubt I will ever be able to physically transition genders (hormones and surgery) because of my medical condition. Whether I do or not, I live in a world where not only does my body not match my mind, but I can also be overtly discriminated against. And yeah, I'm short. And yes, I had severe body image issues and depression. And instead of wallowing in it and pondering the extermination of my genetic lineage because I feared sentencing them to my own misery, I focused on accomplishing things in life that I wanted to do, and be myself, regardless of how the world saw me. I'm not saying that you have to do that, or that you can do it. You're not me.

You're acting like I live under a rocking crying all day. I have a pretty good life, a great husband, a job that I love, I accomplish a whole lot.

I don't view this discussion as extermination but rather giving a young person a chance for a better life than mine. I think it's a very positive thing it's like being able to erase all of that bad crap once and for all.

The only mental health issue I have is depression and I'm treated for that and doing quite well.

[not-hothead-yet.livejournal.com]

I'm 4'7"

I don't "LOVE" being short, but I don't hate it either. What annoys me is having to deal with people's attitudes. Being treated like a child because I"m the size of one. But the physical impact of being short? Not so much.

I'll tell you both my theory and I'm willing to bet (metaphorically) that other dwarfs will say the same: its not being short which is the major problem. its whatever condition MADE you short which is the problem.

I have Jarcho-Levin. The biggest impact, besides being super-short is that I can't turn my head to the side very far and my lungs are very far. Anything to do with swimming? Forget it. Anything requiring athletic endurance? Forget it.
But the worst part of having this condition? Other people. I look completely weird from the moment you set eyes on me (which has the side effect that NOBODY forgets meeting me) and that has dogged me my whole life. I don't look "normal" in any sense of the word. I look, well.. squished. Like 1/3 of my body was removed.
Most times that's okay. I got used to people starting and shouting and saying rude things by the time I was 6 years old. I barely notice it anymore. But I hate going out in public. I hate being around too many strangers. I Hate hate HATE going anywhere there are adolescents. Its the particular brand of high school hell all over again. I hate going on job interviews. I hate the look at I get from a prospective employer once they see me. THe look that goes from "oh she was one of our favorite telephone interviews" to "oh dear. I can't hire her. But how do I play this off?"

I hate having to try to do all the things "normal" people do and only failing at the things which require someone elses approval. Because I don't get that approval from strangers. You'd be surprised at how long it can take to get people to look beyond the exterior. Everyone THINKS they are that kind of deep ad non-judgemental but I can tell you from experience most people, the majority of people are not.

I'm okay with that. I understand its hard for people to get past their prejudice. I appreciate people try so hard to cover it up for my sake.

Would I have kids with my condition? I already did. two have it, two don't. Luckily (!) two also have ASD and don't seem to notice or care about "normal" people's reaction to their appearance. They are too busy trying to parse the words that people say.

This condition has made my life very interesting. Yes, some parts have been ridiculously hard. But nearly every difficulty presented by my condition wasn't because of MY condition, it was because of other people and their attitudes and expectations. I think those attitudes and expectations are changing all the time and I look forward to them changing more. So no, I don't have any regret procreating more children with Jarcho-Levin. The problem isn't really MY problem, its society's and it gets better all the time.

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

The fact that many things can cause shortness means that the genetics might not be as simple as I thought. I just come from a long line of people who are short. Who knows why.

[not-hothead-yet.livejournal.com]

after reading the above I have to say I'm a bit annoyed at first but then again, who am I to tell someone their self-loathing is not legit. If that's the way you feel, that's the way you feel and I'm sorry for you.

I suppose part of my story (and probably MANY other dwarfs) is that since being short is merely a by-product of a more noticeable and possibly difficult conditions it really has been the least of my worries. So I have to climb to get things on high shelfs, so what? My ex-husband used to wack his head on cabinet doors I thoughtlessly left open. I've seen tall people be subject to more body abuse than I any short person I've ever known. I don't worry about wacking my head on anything.

But really when you've got a disability that makes you effectively a freak, you can end up rolling your eyes at people who complain of having a mole on their face. Not to make light of your pain but honestly I cannot for the life of me understand what makes you despise being short so much when its just... being short. Nearly every disadvantage I've had in life has been from the thing that causes my shortness. The shortness itself? A minor inconveniance.

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

This is a very typical response. Basically it's "cry me a river" -- though you said it much more nicely than that. (thanks) I don't blame you or anyone else for responding in that way. Other than the woman and young man I know who had bone extension surgery, and my family and some other short people I know I have only ever had all of this dismissed as not important. Though, most of the people who dismiss it are tall or at least medium height so I just assumed they didn't understand what it was like.

You obviously must understand as well but for some reason its not eating you up. Perhaps you have better things to think about or maybe you're just a different person who cares about different things. I'm quite envious to be honest.

I don't think I'm the only short person who has felt this way. In fact I think not having issues is more unique, due to the social pressure and the simple fact that being different is almost never fun. I had a lot of bad experiences with teasing. Teachers and even my parents bought in to the crap that "there is nothing wrong with being different" and" if you just keep your head up the bullies will stop." Well, they didn't stop. and I could have saved myself a lot of pain if I only knew that keeping my head down would have made me safe. I only later found out that trying to be like other people and doing my best to fit in was the better road -- it makes all the difference in the world socially -- it prevents any physical differences (like shortness) from becoming a target. (I'm just not a natural when it comes to relations with people. The advice that it is OK to be different is good maybe for some brighter kids, but for kids who are socially slow as I was/am it's just bad advice-- what I needed was for someone to explain how to interact with others like you would explain how to build a bird house. Combine that ineptness with any extreme feature, even a desirable one, and you have a toxic mix.)

But, whatever it is that has caused me to feel this way my kid could feel the same. I don't want that. I'd love to solve the issues that I have (and that many other short people have for a whole host of non-trivial reasons) but I don't know how to do that. I'll live with these issues for life.

I have learned to like myself issues and all, so that is something.

You say that there are things about your condition that are more noticeable than shortness. That whatever it is "makes you a freak" I don't think physical differences "make freaks" its how other people see those differences and I guess how we see them ourselves. Any person could be a "freak" if everyone else chooses to look at them in that way. Some things are more often targets differences in skin and facial features, height, weight, bones muscles, even constantly having to ask for help or accommodations. Maybe the real solution is to get rid of the gene that makes everyone else care about such things.

[not-hothead-yet.livejournal.com]

"I don't think I'm the only short person who has felt this way. In fact I think not having issues is more unique, due to the social pressure and the simple fact that being different is almost never fun. "

Well, you'd be wrong. Take a look at the Little People of America.

Yeah, being different isn't usually a ton of fun but I haven't noticed it being a passel of suck either. As I said before, what sucks is other people's reactions. But people who react in a way that makes me angry or cringe isn't the sum total of my experience with non-freaks. And I'm not exactly the only disfigured person I know, I know other people who were subject to cruel ridicule worse than I ever got in my childhood (because my parents purposefully sent me to private schools where bullying and teasing were not tolerated in the slightest) That doesn't mean I have never been teased or bullied but I didn't have to deal with it every day all my childhood.

And I'm sorry you took everyone's attempt to help and support you in such a negative cynical way; the advice that its okay to be different is true, its just that not everyone respects that. Well guess what, there's assholes everywhere.

And if you think being short is the cause of your hellish upbringing you're probably only partially right. I have several friends, one of whom I am very close to, who are visually stunning. As in the kind of girl who gets asked "are you a model? you should be!" all the time. I see how she gets treated whenever we're together. But you know what? She was teased relentlessly in school because her family lives in a trailer park and she grew up trashy poor. She's a beautiful person inside AND out but the tales she's told me (and her family's told me) you'd never believe! because kids pick on whoever they feel like picking on and it doesn't matter what your weakness is because they'll exploit it regardless.

Your bitterness is all focused on being short. I'm not dismissing your pain at all and its annoying that you want to accuse me of that. I'm saying your focus is incorrect. You decided its all in the being short when really its all in the attitude of you and the people around you. If everywhere you went people exclaimed "OMG YOU ARE THE MOST GORGEOUS THING EVAR!" eventually you'd start to think perhaps looking like you do isn't such a bad thing after all. If they crowned you queen and catered to your every whim and told you daily how stunning and awesome you are especially because you are short, eventually you'd believe maybe you weren't so hideous or whatever it is you've been telling yourself for so long.

or would you just convince yourself that everyone's lying and continue to have a sucky life? Your choice hon.

When I call myself a "freak" i"m not being self-derogatory. The term fits me, metaphorically and technically. My body is not normal by any stretch of the imagination. You don't have any specific condition, you're just short and you dare to act like your "disability" is so untenable despite my telling you it doesn't have to be that way? Who's really being dismissive? I'm realy sorry you're so full of animosity but that doesn't mean other people who carry similar disabilities (and worse) feel anything like you do. Don't put that on the rest of the freaks, we don't appreciate it at all.

Depression has been proven to be mostly chemical. I really think you should explore that fact and stop scapegoating a physical inconveniance. All its doing is hurting you. No one else is doing this to you, you are.

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

Thanks for you thoughts, but I really don't need anymore help with my depression. I have found and SSRI that works, I don't have suicidal thoughts anymore and that's really great! Also on my own I have found excellent ways of coping and they work just fine.

For example: The fact the bone extension surgery has changed people's lives for the better in some cases is very comforting to me. I just think about that, and the whole thing feels less oppressive. I don't think I'll ever have the money for such an operation, but it's nice to dream about it.

The complex psychological reasoning about all this is missing the simple fact that I've been unhappy because I feel I'm too short and I would feel better were I taller. Full stop. There's no need to make it anymore complex than that. Thinking positive thoughts dosen't work. This does. I don't think I can undo the damage.

And I'm not bitter either. Not in the least. I'm just very very realistic. And my upbringing was not hellish it was quite typical. (Or maybe hellish upbringings are typical?) I know a lot of people who were teased, since we all banded together in high school, there were one or two in every grade it seemed.

We really want to tell young people that being different dosen't matter. But it matters! We have a responsibility to teach them how to simply survive, how to avoid becoming a target and geting beaten up every other day. This isn't cynical, it's freaking honest! A short kid can blend in or, you can stick out like a sore thumb and become the punching bag. The things is one has a *some* control over this happening, and that is very valuable. Kids are pretty predictable. They don't attack the strangest looking one, but the one who is most sensitive and makes the most amusing crying and whimpering sounds when tortured.

I don't think being taller would have spared me this, but at least it'd be about something else, something less frustrating and in my face every single day.



When I call myself a "freak" i"m not being self-derogatory. The term fits me, metaphorically and technically.

Sorry I misinterpreted you. To me it has a very different meaning.

Best!

[not-hothead-yet.livejournal.com]

I never said being different doesn't MATTER

I said it's okay to be different. Sorry you don't agree with that. I have two children with Autism and I hope people like you stay far away from them. I'm sorry you don't think its okay to be different. But that's YOU.

Telling my kids its OKAY to be different and not to hate themselves or their difference is how i grew up and how i believe because its how i live and I'm very very happy. I am not hating on my shortness or even my Jarcho-Levin so tell me again why I'm supposed to think telling my kids its not okay to be different is somehow GOOD for them? cuz I'm not seeing it.

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

It's OK to be different it just isn't always safe.

[yelena-r0ssini.livejournal.com]

Look, I'm trying to find the most polite way to say this, but do you have ANY idea how insensitive you sound when you're talking to someone with an actual disability and telling them, "No, your experience and insight don't count, I have REAL suffering"? Because that's how you're coming off right now, intentionally or not. You're short, and it makes you sad - fine, I am not trying to tell you that how you feel about your shortness is wrong. And maybe you personally would feel better if you were taller. But when you tell not_hothead_yet that you're being "realistic" and "freaking honest", the subtext is that you think she's being UNrealistic and dishonest in being okay with her disability and not feeling self-loathing about it. And that's not cool.

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

I'm being realistic about the fact that kids who are different and who react to bullying get beat up more often. That is all. I never sad her insights don't count as real suffering if anything it's if *I* have suffered enough to have the right to say anything that's being questioned here.

I think you mis-understood what I wrote perhaps it isn't clear.

[yelena-r0ssini.livejournal.com]

And by not_hothead_yet's disability I am of course referring to her crippling hotness. ;)

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

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