Even more Wankery that we find acceptable...

[sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com]

While I generally disagree with his politics I think Mr. Savage raises an excellent point.

Now consider this...

Bill Maher and NYT's David Carr the "Middle Places" and "Low-Sloping Foreheads".

I apologise for linking as I seem to be having trouble embedding the video.

Now I would assume that both men in the second video consider themselves to be reasonably intelligent and enlightened men. If accused of being racist or bigoted I would imagine that they would be properly offended.

Which is why I'm going to ask an uncomfortable question, why is it ok to disparage one socio-political/ethnic class as stupid, dangerous, useless, ect... but not another. Would his comments have been more or less offensive had he been talking about "Fags" "Twats" "Spics" "Wops" "Chinks" or *Gasp* "N*ggers"?

Discuss.

Comments

[soliloquy76.livejournal.com]

They're certainly less offensive because it's a COMEDY SHOW.

Off-topic

[foreverbeach.livejournal.com]

Dan Savage should get the Nobel Peace Prize for his It Gets Better campaign.

[anfalicious.livejournal.com]

History.

[sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com]

One with a very obvious political focus and message.

[sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com]

In the abstract this is true, context does matter but that raises it's own questions.

For instance how much do you let slide before calling the books even? Will redneck jokes always be acceptable and racist jokes always off-limits?

[sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com]

That would explain a lot.

[sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com]

And that makes blanket insults directed towards a specific class of people acceptable?

[eracerhead.livejournal.com]

There is a difference in making fun of a group characterized by what they are vs a group characterized by common modes of behavior. In the latter one can always claim not to be a member of said group.

[sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com]

Does that mean that black black jokes that focus on watermelon, basketball, and affirmative action are ok?

[zeitgeistic.livejournal.com]

Pretty much, yeah.

As someone who grew up in Alabama, redneck is a state of mind. It's not something you're born into, like race.

It's more like a lifestyle. Southern != redneck and redneck != southern, so (I hope I'm explaining this well, in a non-wanky way) even if you're born to a family that's Real Deep South (as I was), doesn't mean you're going to be a redneck. In my experience, it was always something that some kids said they "wanted to be (redneck)", others were more "I'd rather just be proud of my southern heritage", and still others were "Get me out of here, preferably with a mid-west accent".

[anfalicious.livejournal.com]

Well, the thing is you can't really take it out of the abstract. Any attempt to codify this kind of thing will inevitably fall apart under the weight of it's own internal self-contradictions and exceptions. It's more about the vibe of the thing, the zeitgeist, as it were. To those who don't understand the difference between the word "nigger" and the word "cracker", I can't say much more than "pay more attention".

Like, pay attention to the reactions of others when you say things. Are people genuinely hurt? If so, try to find out why they are hurt and rather than shrugging it off as inconsequential try to empathise with the person and their situation. If it hurts a large group of people, especially if it has to do with either an unchosen commonality like race, or a group of shared painful personal and group histories like homosexuals or abuse victims, then it's probably a good idea to stay away from such things unless you want to be an arsehole. If you don't mind being an arsehole, then OK, but pay attention to how people treat arseholes and expect accordingly.

Take redneck jokes. Rednecks own redneck jokes. I rarely see anyone doing redneck jokes except rednecks. We have a similar thing with racial humour here too. Much of the world doesn't understand Australian racial humour (OK, we had that blackface thing on Hey Hey It's Saturday, that was shit, and there is a lot of racism here, don't get me wrong), especially of the type shown in something like Fat Pizza, where you have skips playing skips and lebs playing lebs and wogs playing wogs and gooks playing gooks and making all of the racist jokes around them, but they can because there's ownership of the jokes. We have another show playing here at the moment called Angry Boys (it should be on HBO there, either now or soon). There's a character in that, Gran, who makes heaps of racist jokes. Really racist, inappropriate jokes. But you laugh at her; the reaction is "Gran, you can't say that!", but you laugh, cos hey, racist jokes can be pretty fucking funny. The difference here is that it's being presented in a context where the racism isn't cool, it isn't ok, but it can still be funny; you're laughing at the racist, not the racism. It's very subtle and I will be interested to see how Americans react to it.

[anfalicious.livejournal.com]

Hrm. Very astute observation.

Do you have anything to say on what "fair" is, either your own opinion or what you perceive others' is?

[eracerhead.livejournal.com]

In one case you have a municipality that consistently passes laws considered objectionable or backward by the standards of other municipalities. If the people of said municipality repeatedly elect representatives who pass such laws it is direct evidence that the characterization of the population of said municipality is objectionable or backward.

This is not the same thing as saying, you are from X, therefore you are Y.

[eracerhead.livejournal.com]

No because as a black person you cannot claim to be not-black.

[anfalicious.livejournal.com]

I stand by everyone's right to throw blanket insults at people on the basis of their belief system. It's entirely plastic and an act of free will.

Where belief crosses over with culture it gets more difficult. I think the war on Christmas is more dangerous than the war on God.

[sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com]

"you guys" who exactly?

Just to make sure I understand your position.

What you're saying is that "if my opponents do it, its ok for me to do it".

That is an exceptionaly weak argument.

[sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com]

Too late

[anfalicious.livejournal.com]

When I hear the words nigger or faggot, I get a mental image of a punch in the face that often followed such vocalisations. Does that make any sense?

[sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com]

I would say that because "fairness" is entirely subjective and thus impossible to quantify it has no place in a rational discussion, then again that's just the Math Student/Engineer in me.

[the-rukh.livejournal.com]

Racist jokes are about race. Redneck jokes are not.

We make fun of this don't we?

[mrbogey.livejournal.com]

So we can denigrate ethnic groups if they do something stupid en masse?

What's up with blacks in the ghetto? Neanderthals!

[sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com]

But in that case shouldn't it be the specific law that comes under attack?

[mrbogey.livejournal.com]

'Racist jokes are about race. Redneck jokes are not.'

So is there another race besides white that is considered a redneck?

[sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com]

But a religious person can claim to not be religious?

[anfalicious.livejournal.com]

Hrm... All this aggressive mental imagery... Don't let Blue Mangoes see, she'll get jealous :P