[identity profile] blue-mangos.livejournal.com posting in [community profile] talkpolitics
There is a debate among feminists of today surrounding the legalities and morality of the sex trade. Many believe it should be a legitimate profession that women can choose, out of their own free will, to engage in. Sex itself is not immoral so why should the trade of it be so? It is my belief that it should be legalized, as taking away the underground aspect of the industry will remove a great deal of the risks, dangers and coercion involved. Many countries around the world have legalized prostitution. Some, including Canada, have decriminalized the act of solicitation, while operating a bawdy house, public solicitation and living off the avails of prostitution (pimping) remain illegal. There are some, including many South American countries who have seemed to have struck the best balance, with prostitution and brothels being legal for women over 18 with pimping remaining illegal.

In my opinion, the criminalization of the act is what leads to exploitation of women and to the dangers and abuse that many face. Giving women the option of choosing it as a profession while keeping pimping illegal reduces the coercion aspect. Take away the dark alley scenarios and lack of accountability and it becomes much more safe and controlled. Legalization may also reduce the stigma surrounding prostitution. Men rape and murder prostitutes as they are seen as worthless. Once it is a legitimate job it may raise the value of these women in the eyes of society and especially police. Rapes and abuse of sex workers will be reported to the police once the threat of arrest is removed. The health risks involved in prostitution for both the woman and her clients can also be reduced through legalization. Mandatory health checks can be instituted by the government to stop the spread of HIV and STDs.

Unfortunately, not enough research has been done in these areas to support the belief that legalized prostitution will lead to these positive benefits, and the information out there is conflicting, depending on who has commissioned the study. All we can go on at this point is common sense and the word of the sex workers themselves who have been working for legislation. More attention must be paid to the matter until we find a model that provides the best protection and options for the women involved.

It is my belief that prostitution should be a viable career choice for any woman who chooses to engage in it. However, I recognize that many of those who do so are doing it out of a lack of any other choice, due to socio-economic factors and addiction. A vital part of any countries prostitution standards should be exit strategies and resources available to those who wish to no longer engage in the practice. Efforts should be focused not on punishing the prostitutes, but in determining their needs and choices and giving assistance where desired.

Removing the criminal act, and allowing women greater choices will also remove some of the moral issues many women have with prostitution. Under illegal prostitution, men are seen as dominating and exploiting women. To take away that power and put it back in the hands of women should be seen as a victory by feminist groups. As well, normalizing the sex trade should help to remove the stigma of sex workers as degenerates.

Two areas that must remain illegal and fought against are child prostitution (which should, IMO, be considered anyone under the age of 18) and sex trafficking. It is estimated that 600,000-800,000 men, women and children are trafficked across international borders every year. Globalization and advanced communication devices and the internet have made the practice much easier. Traffickers prey on the vulnerable, mostly those in undeveloped or poor countries. The victims, often teenage girls, are lured from their homes with promises of a better life, removed from their countries and kept in situations where they have no control, no security and no protection from local law enforcement. These are the areas women's groups and law enforcement should be focusing their attention and resources on stopping, these are the true victims of illegal prostitution.

Prostitution is often referred to as the oldest profession in the world. This may not be completely accurate but records exist back to 2400 B.C. where it was recorded on a Sumerian list of professions (along with, interestingly, lady doctor.) and continues through historical records right up to present time. It is safe to say it is not going away. It is time for all countries to recognize this fact and provide the safest laws possible to protect these women.

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Date: 5/7/11 17:10 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] a-new-machine.livejournal.com
Just as a side note, I think it's somewhat remarkable that large parts of society now see the cure as worse than the disease in many areas. Many prominent arguments for abortion, drug legalization, prostitution, gun rights, immigrant amnesty and the like all hinge on the idea that making the allegedly unwanted conduct illegal makes the conduct even worse than it would be were it legal, because it will occur anyway.

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Date: 5/7/11 17:18 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fizzyland.livejournal.com
Europe, or at least countries like Germany and the Netherlands do a far better job at acknowledging reality in making prostitution a legitimate profession. We're Pretend Puritans in North America, including Canada.

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Date: 5/7/11 19:21 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] peamasii.livejournal.com
I live in Amsterdam so I know a bit about this, it is legal but the conditions are not regulated (there is no "quality of services" control). Most of the workers are immigrant temporary workers, usually from Latin America, Africa or Eastern Europe. They have a chance to make a lot of money in a few years if they are experienced, professional and can maintain a regular clientele, the ones that try to make a quick killing scamming off tourists don't usually manage to do so.

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Date: 6/7/11 12:11 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
The USA used to do this once upon a time. Then the Fundamentalists came out of fucking nowhere and changed things for the worse.

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Date: 5/7/11 17:29 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rasilio.livejournal.com
Yes of course prostitution should be illegal because when you strip the act down to it's most basic level, one person agreeing to have sex with another in return for monetary considerations there is no possible way either person is being victimized, the only argument for outlawing is based on what some priest in a fancy hat says god wants.

That said I'm not totally on board with criminalizing things like "pimping" or running a brothel. Realistically a "pimp" or brothel can offer valuable services to the prostitutes serving as business agents, marketing, and providing security. They key is to criminalize the coercion that typically occurs with the criminal realities of the pimp/brothel but I think that can be achieved without outlawing the role altogether.

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Date: 5/7/11 17:36 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pastorlenny.livejournal.com
the only argument for outlawing is based on what some priest in a fancy hat says god wants

Protestants base their ethical arguments on assertions by priests in fancy hats? News to me!
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Date: 5/7/11 18:25 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rasilio.livejournal.com
BAH I just noticed that somehow I posted this...

"Yes of course prostitution should be illegal"

when it should have read...

"Yes of course prostitution should be legal"

Hopefully people can tell that is what I meant from the rest of the context (it is really the only way my comment makes any sense at all) but I figured I'd post the correction anyway.

I was just about...

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Re: I was just about...

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Date: 5/7/11 18:44 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] curseangel.livejournal.com

In my opinion, the criminalization of the act is what leads to exploitation of women and to the dangers and abuse that many face. Giving women the option of choosing it as a profession while keeping pimping illegal reduces the coercion aspect. Take away the dark alley scenarios and lack of accountability and it becomes much more safe and controlled. Legalization may also reduce the stigma surrounding prostitution. Men rape and murder prostitutes as they are seen as worthless. Once it is a legitimate job it may raise the value of these women in the eyes of society and especially police. Rapes and abuse of sex workers will be reported to the police once the threat of arrest is removed. The health risks involved in prostitution for both the woman and her clients can also be reduced through legalization. Mandatory health checks can be instituted by the government to stop the spread of HIV and STDs.


I completely agree. Actually, I wrote a paper to this effect, with a strong focus on how legalization would protect the women (and men) involved in prostitution and allow them proper health care and the ability to go to the police if something happened to them.

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Date: 6/7/11 00:13 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] raichu100.livejournal.com
"and the ability to go to the police if something happened to them."

This, I think, is a key point here, and one of the main reasons to legalize the practice.

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Date: 5/7/11 19:30 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] peamasii.livejournal.com
It should be legalized in big cities, regulated for taxation and offered the same public benefits as any other independent profession. I don't think it's a job for everyone, it takes some communication/acting, self-control and good money management. It seems they also pretty much have to give up most of their own pleasure and physical privacy. Ultimately it's a job of self-sacrifice but the part about dignity has more to do with society's negative view than with the work itself.
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Date: 5/7/11 20:56 (UTC)
southwest: (Default)
From: [personal profile] southwest
Sex itself is not immoral, but sex trade is.

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Transcend the context

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Date: 5/7/11 21:45 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] reflaxion.livejournal.com
I cannot think of a single negative to legalizing and properly regulating prostitution. Not one.

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Date: 5/7/11 23:22 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] anfalicious.livejournal.com
Well, it depends. If you're a crime boss it can have a big hit on your income. Although, it's more likely that it will just legitimise former criminal businesses (this means there's still lots of dodgy people around the legalised sex trade, but they have a greater interest in staying legal).

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Date: 6/7/11 05:54 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gunslnger.livejournal.com
something you'd think that people who support banning sex work for paternalistic reasons would be concerned about (but aren't, naturally).

I've found that they are concerned about it, but don't think about it because that's SEP.
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Date: 5/7/11 23:19 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] anfalicious.livejournal.com
My home state of Victoria legalised prostitution in the mid 90s. Conditions still aren't great, but it's comparable to working in any other aspect of the hospitality industry in terms of hours and pay (the hospitality industry in Australia is a viable profession for many people). It won't make you rich, but you could eat and pay the rent. Workers are unionised and have legal protections, so it's far, far better than it was before.

The industry has grown since then, but not much faster than the rate of population increase (and the city has changed completely in that time, become much more an international city).

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Date: 5/7/11 23:20 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] anfalicious.livejournal.com
Oh, also, I don't see why morality should have anything to do with the legality of something. They're two separate areas of human existence.

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Date: 5/7/11 23:25 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] anfalicious.livejournal.com
Oh, another point of view that many don't consider:

My partner works with adults with disabilities. Some of these people have the mind of a child in the body of an adult (that's a really simplistic way of looking at it, but that's another story). These people have the same needs other adults do, but don't have the same ability to fulfil those needs. Making prostitution illegal either criminalises some of the weakest people in our society or denies them the ability to access the full realm of human existence to the best of their ability.

Tell me THAT is moral.

People who want to stop other people having sex just because they find it icky are immoral in my opinion.

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Date: 6/7/11 00:08 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] prog-expat.livejournal.com
"People who want to stop other people having sex just because they find it icky are immoral in my opinion." This.

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Date: 6/7/11 00:09 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] raichu100.livejournal.com
I agree with basically everything you've said here.

Especially this line: "These [international sex trafficking, etc.] are the areas women's groups and law enforcement should be focusing their attention and resources on stopping, these are the true victims of illegal prostitution."

Maybe I'll make a post about that. It's something that I'm fairly passionate about tbh.

That reminds me...

Date: 6/7/11 00:50 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sophia-sadek.livejournal.com
A few years back, I had the chance to test out an machine that had been programmed with traditional legal values. I pointed out that prostitution is not a crime. The machine had some difficulty distinguishing between an act that is illegal and a crime. The only thing that is criminal about prostitution is thumbing your nose at the judicial authorities and doing what they say you should not do.

Laws that restrict sexual activity are a vestige of slavery. In the most restrictive societies, only fathers with legitimate children were permitted to participate in state activities. We have been paring away at these oppressive rules little by little.

Re: That reminds me...

Date: 6/7/11 02:26 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] the-rukh.livejournal.com
You don't think they have anything to do with protecting vulnerable women from being used as objects? If prostitution is legal, will we see some women put in positions where they have to do it or starve?

Why do we need welfare? There's always prostitution.

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Date: 6/7/11 05:29 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dv8nation.livejournal.com
I agree that it really would be better to just legalize it and make sure some standards are followed.

As an added bonus we wouldn't have to listen to rappers talk about how great being a pimp is anymore.

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Date: 6/7/11 08:02 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nano-muse.livejournal.com
As an added bonus we wouldn't have to listen to rappers talk about how great being a pimp is anymore.

Probably one of the biggest benefits of all.

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Date: 6/7/11 05:35 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thies.livejournal.com
morality doesn't matter. I don't see why prostitution shouldn't be legal if all involved are participating voluntarily and are able to understand what they are doing. So, pretty much same as drinking alcohol, smoking weed or getting married.

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Date: 6/7/11 05:51 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gunslnger.livejournal.com
Prohibition causes a black market, regardless of what you're prohibiting. It didn't work with alcohol, it hasn't worked with drugs, it doesn't work with prostitution.

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Date: 6/7/11 07:26 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ddstory.livejournal.com
What about same-sex marriage.

Hell, we could expand with incest, sex with underages, cannibalism, just about anything. Your stance about those?
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Date: 6/7/11 07:41 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kylinrouge.livejournal.com
I say legalize it. Think of the tax revenues!

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Date: 6/7/11 08:03 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nano-muse.livejournal.com
Not to mention how many jobs it would create.

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Date: 6/7/11 12:11 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
My view is that the legality and morality of things are and should be distinct and separate things. Legally, nothing is wrong with prostitution, provided it is consistently regulated and things like STDs are monitored on a regular basis. Morally, it's no more problematic than anything else people do, and less problematic than other vices.

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Date: 9/7/11 22:24 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tcpip.livejournal.com
Sweden has the among the weirdest legislation in my opinion. There, it is illegal to pay for prostitution but it is not illegal to receive payment...

Apparently it is a fashion among young Swedes to give each other 1 krona after sex....