[identity profile] dv8nation.livejournal.com posting in [community profile] talkpolitics

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/haiti/article/920149

It's now been just over a year since Haiti was hit with a devistating earthquake. And yet, while the rubble has been cleared thousands still live in tents and crime and violence are still rampent.

The world seems to have forgotten Haiti quickly. Sad, yes, but not a surprise. These are tough times and even people in the first world are having a hard time making ends meet. People the world over are normally pretty generous towards these situations. But that didn't happen this time. When you're worried about next month's rent some poor SOB in the Caribbean isn't worth much more to you than a somewhat cold reminder that things could always be worse.

But running with this a bit relief to Japan is still on people's radar. Granted, that's a much more recent nightmare. Still, let's not kid ourselves. Japan has money and a lot of it. They've got tech, skilled workers and a hell of a lot of people you can sell stuff to even in hard times. While Haiti isn't financially or politically important to much of anyone. Except maybe the Dominican Republic and they're got their own problems to worry about.

It seems that the developed world looks out for it's own while the third world is forgotten unless they have oil. Not a surprise to any of us, I'm sure. But at times like this I think a reminder is order. For the cold comfort if nothing else.

(no subject)

Date: 9/6/11 11:33 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] malasadas.livejournal.com
Averting our eyes from disasters that defy any sense of easy resolution in nations that offer little in return could practically qualify for an Olympic event.

I do wonder, though -- other than offer to take Haiti in full custody for a decade or so and pour in a Marshall Plan, what can the developed world do to assist one of the biggest human tragedies on the planet? I am literally nowhere near smart enough to even think of how Haiti's path to a better future would start let alone proceed.

(no subject)

Date: 9/6/11 12:02 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fizzyland.livejournal.com
To me, that just shows the damage that Colonialism does to a society's ability to govern themselves.

(no subject)

Date: 9/6/11 13:48 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pluckedflowers.livejournal.com
The process by which social relations are manipulated within a colonial setting isn't by any means simple, but the fact that they are so manipulated really is. Indeed, colonialism only really works to the extent that colonized societies are prevented from "properly" developing capitalist social relations. Colonialism functions by extracting surplus labor and raw materials from colonized societies and turning colonized territories into captive markets for finished goods from the colonial mainland. None of this works if a society enjoys free and normal development, as this would disrupt the social relations on which the colonizers depend for stability and power. See, for example, the workings of colonial law in India under British rule (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/17797756/WashbrookIndialaw.pdf).

(no subject)

Date: 9/6/11 19:01 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] meus-ovatio.livejournal.com
Concurrent with that, the effect on social relations of the imperial power is interesting as well. I studied the United States' occupation of Haiti post-WWI, and the literature had some interesting points about how homophobic attitudes increased as a result of masculine and chauvanistic imperial policies.
(deleted comment)

(no subject)

Date: 9/6/11 19:08 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] meus-ovatio.livejournal.com
Once they withdraw? No one knows how to make what they have to work with function, and no one remembers how they were doing it before. It's a huge mess.
The lasting legacy of US interventionism in Haiti as been the military establishment, which is the only sufficiently organized and stable institution left over after direct interventionism is abandoned in favor of economic imperialism. This is a well-known lesson about imperial projects, and we're going to see it again with Iraq and Afghanistan. We will leave, and having put 80 percent of our efforts into building security forces, the only stable power base will be that military apparatus. Thus, military dictatorships and juntas.

(no subject)

Date: 10/6/11 08:53 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mikeyxw.livejournal.com
Haiti had a good run right after the US left. Their assembly elected someone who was then re-elected by the general population and peacefully transitioned power after two terms. The next fellow, who was popularly elected, ran the place for five years.

The US left institutions stable enough to maintain civilian rule for 15 years. The US certainly did some nasty things in Haiti, but we didn't really leave the place a mess. The civilian governments were actually pretty strong, bordering on authoritarian, quite some time.

(no subject)

Date: 9/6/11 19:06 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] meus-ovatio.livejournal.com
More specifically, the political propaganda and narrative of adoptionism and how it creates hyper-genderized social discourses, with men being subjected to living up to the ideal standard of the Father-figure as we adopt and teach the savages how to be White and properly male. Prior to imperial projects, what is known about sexual orientation attitudes is that homosexuality was not so violently or thoroughly rejected. It was, in fact, a standard phase of post-pubescent male development, especially among working-classes, fighting-classes and the like. But the project of imperial adoptionism cannot abide complicating norms of sexual orientation or gender spectrums.

(no subject)

Date: 9/6/11 23:03 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] harry-beast.livejournal.com
India has its challenges, but all things considered, it's doing pretty well. It's certainly far better off than Haiti.

(no subject)

Date: 10/6/11 08:42 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pluckedflowers.livejournal.com
"all things considered, it's doing pretty well."

For the capitalists, sure. For those dispossessed by the capitalists, not so much:

(no subject)

Date: 10/6/11 17:20 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] terminator44.livejournal.com
The U.K. isn't still fucking with India. We can't say the same about the U.S. and Haiti.

(no subject)

Date: 9/6/11 12:32 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] eracerhead.livejournal.com
What should we do differently in Haiti? If we intervene we become colonialist and extend the problem for another generation. If we don't intervene, the immediate problems get worse, but out of the ashes may come a better form of governance. IMO the developed world is doing about as much as it should do, balancing the two competing implementations. It is a difficult situation and criticizing from our armchairs all day is not particularly useful.

Japan is different. Japan has the capacity not only to accept some aid and spend it wisely, but also to purchase the necessary goods and services to expedite recovery. What some people are seeing as humanitarian interest is really just the wheels of capitalism.

(no subject)

Date: 9/6/11 19:14 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] meus-ovatio.livejournal.com
What should we do differently in Haiti?
It's a tough cycle. After direct intervention is abandoned for cost reasons (and failure), the native culture re-asserts itself. The native culture is not bourgeois or factory-oriented mercantilism. The native culture is sustenance based naturalism. So when they are "liberated", they return to their original ways... but Western-educated agents and natives find this to be shameful, and think that they should have a higher GDP and be more respectable.

So the agents of economic exploitation are invited back in, to re-impose the bourgeois, factory-oriented mercantilism in order to boost economic ratings. And the native culture resists, obviously.

And white people in America point to this as a sign of their inherent inferiority: that they are not bourgeois or factory-oriented mercantilists seeking higher GDP's and per-capita basis ratings.

(no subject)

Date: 9/6/11 13:18 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] skull-bearer.livejournal.com
I'd say it also has to do with the nuclear scare. Since Chenobyl, people are paranoid about anything going wrong with power plants, even half a world away.

(no subject)

Date: 9/6/11 15:43 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] a-new-machine.livejournal.com
There's a lot of truth in that. Just look at all the silly ideas people had about radiation clouds over LA.

(no subject)

Date: 9/6/11 13:48 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pastorlenny.livejournal.com
A lot of people are doing a lot of things for Haiti. They weren't in very good condition before the quake. It's going to take more than a year to get them anywhere. And there are many other problems in the world that legitimately compete for available resources of goodwill.

This is not to say that it is unfortunate that the US in partiular invests so much more of its national treasure in killing, rather than in good works. We just have to be careful about viewing Haiti today outside of a broader historical and geopolitical context.

(no subject)

Date: 9/6/11 15:28 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rasilio.livejournal.com
The best thing that could possibly ever happen to Haiti is for the first world to completely forget they existed and stop trying to solve their problems.

Sure, it will suck for the Haitians in the short term but in the long term it is the only hope they have of ever developing a viable society.

(no subject)

Date: 9/6/11 15:55 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nairiporter.livejournal.com
You are asking for people to ignore a person who has had a stroke on the street and leave him alone lying on the sidewalk suffocating without giving him first aid. Then he will probably solve his "problems" on his own.

How about what you call the "first world" giving first aid to someone in need and then leaving the Haitians to solve their problems once they have stepped back on their feet? Is that what a responsible international community (or any society) would do, or they would leave them lying alone on the sidewalk as you are suggesting?

I do agree that "just throwing money at problems is not the solution" which I am sure is your point. However investing in solving problems is not the problem per se, it's the ineffective and corrupt scheme of doing it which needs to be changed. This is something too many people either fail or deliberately refuse to understand because it suits them. They find all sorts of "moral" and economic excuses to justify their indifference to problems.

What's more, I don't think it is the first world that holds the monopoly on aid (http://talk-politics.livejournal.com/1006115.html) so I do not see why you should be automatically equating "first world" = "those who are trying to solve Haiti's problems".

(no subject)

Date: 9/6/11 17:30 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rasilio.livejournal.com
"You are asking for people to ignore a person who has had a stroke on the street and leave him alone lying on the sidewalk suffocating without giving him first aid. Then he will probably solve his "problems" on his own."

No I am not. I would be doing that if I said no one should ever have provided disaster relief in the first place. This is clearly NOT what I said. Disaster relief is categorically different from other types of aid because it is targeted, time bound, and not tied up in "fixing" any actual or perceived social shortcomings in the affected society. Does Haiti still need disaster relief? Possibly but the time boundary on that need would be very close to ending.

No, I am referring only to the ongoing attempts to "fix" Haiti, to end the crime, violence, and poverty.

Has any country ever in history been "fixed" in such a manner? No, they haven't because it is impossible to separate the interests of the foreign "benefactor" from the aid and their interests are never the same as the Haitians interest.

No, the change that has to happen in Haiti has to come from within and yes that unfortunately means 20 or more years of violence and possibly even civil wars before they start to build a cultural consensus on what they want their country to be and until that happens no amount of "assistance" is going to change anything.

"What's more, I don't think it is the first world that holds the monopoly on aid so I do not see why you should be automatically equating "first world" = "those who are trying to solve Haiti's problems"."

I'm not. I'm equating First World = Those with deep enough pockets to try and direct Haiti's development.

(no subject)

Date: 9/6/11 17:43 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nairiporter.livejournal.com
Then I completely misunderstood you. I am dumb.

(no subject)

Date: 9/6/11 18:49 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rasilio.livejournal.com
No you are not, it is an easy enough thing to do in a print medium.

The only suggestion I would offer going forward is unless the person you are dealing with has proven to be an unapologetic troll in the past (and I hope no one here seriously thinks that of me) when they write something that looks to be outrageous reexamine it to see if there are alternate explanations and then ask for clarification on what they mean, then if your initial impression was correct fire away with all guns. :-)

I should note of course that this advice can apply to all of us, myself included at times.

(no subject)

Date: 9/6/11 15:47 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nairiporter.livejournal.com
Every time I look at my son I am reminded of all those people who remained there and who were not as fortunate as he was to get adopted. I hope to return there for a third time as soon as possible. Many things have changed in Haiti for the last one year, but unfortunately the things we were hoping to be changed, have mostly not.

(no subject)

Date: 9/6/11 17:13 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] meus-ovatio.livejournal.com
Is the only metric we have for "remembering" things is if they're on the cable news cycle? Like, we're good if they're on the cable news cycle, and we're covered? The important thing being that they're on the news cycle?

(no subject)

Date: 9/6/11 17:39 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] telemann.livejournal.com
No, Live Journal posts too.

Image

(no subject)

Date: 9/6/11 18:23 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] policraticus.livejournal.com
It seems that the developed world looks out for it's own while the third world is forgotten unless they have oil.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Response_to_the_2010_Haiti_earthquake

$2.5 billion already given.
$1.3 billion pledged.

This is for a country with a GDP of $11.5 billion.

Just because Haiti isn't front page news anymore doesn't mean that relief isn't ongoing nor does it mean that the developed world doesn't care about Haiti. Is Haiti a complete basket case and a text book example of how not to run a country or develop an economy? Absolutely. Is this something we can fix? Without physically taking control of the country, I don't see how.

(no subject)

Date: 9/6/11 19:41 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] deborahkla.livejournal.com
Thanks for posting this. It's a shame that each new disaster makes us forget those poorer countries that continue to struggle in the wake of a disaster. Haiti has been much troubled for years, and I agree with your assessment that Japan has the people, resources and money to recover more quickly, whereas Haiti desperately needs our help.

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