[identity profile] badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com posting in [community profile] talkpolitics
I don't know how much of a discussion topic there is here, but, like numbers stations, this is another one of those quirky things I have to share.



Poking around Boing-Boing during lunch, they posted the above video and a link to the (in?)famous marshmallow test. I'll let Jonah Lehrer explain:

Carolyn was asked to sit down in the chair and pick a treat from a tray of marshmallows, cookies, and pretzel sticks. Carolyn chose the marshmallow...A researcher then made Carolyn an offer: she could either eat one marshmallow right away or, if she was willing to wait while he stepped out for a few minutes, she could have two marshmallows when he returned. He said that if she rang a bell on the desk while he was away he would come running back, and she could eat one marshmallow but would forfeit the second. Then he left the room.

...

Most of the children were like Craig. They struggled to resist the treat and held out for an average of less than three minutes. “A few kids ate the marshmallow right away,” Walter Mischel, the Stanford professor of psychology in charge of the experiment, remembers. “They didn’t even bother ringing the bell. Other kids would stare directly at the marshmallow and then ring the bell thirty seconds later.” About thirty per cent of the children, however, were like Carolyn. They successfully delayed gratification until the researcher returned, some fifteen minutes later. These kids wrestled with temptation but found a way to resist.


It turns out that this is all related. The kids who could resist the longest, who could figure out ways to cope, what have you? It turns out they did better on test scores, were more sociable, and had fewer temper issues over time. This same sort of psychological pattern held throughout the years. Seems reasonable, right?

Lehrer has followed it up this week with new data regarding the impact of lead paint on the brain. The average IQ loss for children with lead in their system was 7 points, and MRIs indicated quite a bit of outright brain volume loss in those with the most exposure. It all trended properly, too - the more exposure to lead paint in your system, the more pronounced the brain volume loss.

So lead stopped going into most gasolines, new homes stopped using lead paint, and the exposure dropped. The goal of reducing lead exposure is achieved. As many of you know, I tend to note the unintended consequences of policies, whether it be on health care or on stimulus spending, and have significant concerns about those results. This is an instance where the unintended consequence of reducing the lead in gasoline and paint may have an added benefit: it may be directly impacting the crime rate:

For decades, doctors have known that children with lots of lead in their blood are much more likely to be aggressive, violent and delinquent.

...

Tests have shown that the amount of lead in Americans’ blood fell by four-fifths between 1975 and 1991. A 2007 study by the economist Jessica Wolpaw Reyes contended that the reduction in gasoline lead produced more than half of the decline in violent crime during the 1990s in the U.S. and might bring about greater declines in the future.


The science, also linked in the original article by Lehrer, backs this theory up:

Childhood lead exposure is associated with region-specific reductions in adult gray matter volume. Affected regions include the portions of the prefrontal cortex and ACC responsible for executive functions, mood regulation, and decision-making.


I thought people might find this interesting, both on a scientific and sociological level as well as a policy one. While it doesn't necessarily answer or change the political realities of many policies, it definitely raises some extra ideas as to thinking more critically about how a policy may impact a society, positive or negative.

(no subject)

Date: 2/6/11 17:09 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] johnny9fingers.livejournal.com
But one could argue that such information would lead to a government being almost obliged to ban lead in gasoline on the grounds of social order, fewer court costs, fewer incarcerations, etc & etc.

Not that I am.

Re: WE HAVE TO GO DEEPER

Date: 2/6/11 19:01 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] johnny9fingers.livejournal.com
If it leads to cheaper government and less tax....

(no subject)

Date: 2/6/11 19:35 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rick-day.livejournal.com
"A dulled mind creates an angry voter"

-Rick Day

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Date: 2/6/11 17:26 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] soliloquy76.livejournal.com
I would much rather see this experiment done with crack/crackheads.

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Date: 2/6/11 17:47 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] root-fu.livejournal.com
Yayz for delayed gratification.

(no subject)

Date: 2/6/11 17:53 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
Doesn't that imply that they might simply be better at doing what others tell them to do, just as a test is doing what you're told to do?

(no subject)

Date: 2/6/11 18:06 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] root-fu.livejournal.com
They were never explicitly told to do anything.

Only that they could eat it or wait and have another marshmallow as a bonus.

(no subject)

Date: 2/6/11 19:06 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
Suppose the kid prefers not marshmallows but Reese's Peanut Butter Cups?

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Date: 2/6/11 19:05 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bex.livejournal.com
Sorta relies on a) the kid liking marshmallows (I don't like them, myself) and b) the 'reward' ONLY being more marshmallows, and not the instant reward of eating it now. Consider, for example, the same experiment but with adults and money. Adults are told they can have $50 now, or $100 a week from now. Well, if I'm out of groceries and I REALLY need money, I'll take the $50. Sure, the 'reward' is greater in a week, but in reality the INSTANT reward of $50 now is actually more appealing, because I need money now. Figuring out what is a reward for any individual must require more than just quantity. Timing is important, too. There's an interesting set of experiments byyyyyy... I want to say Wilson & Daly at McMaster U, and they test this reward thing under a bunch of social circumstances... Oh, yes! Future discounting.

Here it is:
Wilson & Daly (2004) "Do pretty women inspire men to discount the future?" (http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/271/Suppl_4/S177.short)

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Date: 2/6/11 19:06 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
And if they don't care one way or the other it's a classic study in apathy.

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Date: 2/6/11 18:10 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] blue-mangos.livejournal.com
I must have been exposed to too much lead as a child because all I can think about after reading this is how much I want a marshmallow.

(no subject)

Date: 2/6/11 22:58 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] anfalicious.livejournal.com
It would follow more if you were REALLY REALLY ANGRY that you had no marshmallow.

(no subject)

Date: 2/6/11 18:11 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jonathankorman.livejournal.com
So lead stopped going into most gasolines, new homes stopped using lead paint, and the exposure dropped.

I cannot resist pointing out that this was due to government regulation.

I'm sure that you are opposed to that policy.

(no subject)

Date: 2/6/11 18:30 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
Indeed. Too bad people couldn't pull themselves up by their bootstraps and lead themselves out of trouble.

(no subject)

Date: 2/6/11 18:35 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jonathankorman.livejournal.com
I love the use of the passive voice in “lead stopped going into most gasolines.”

I'm sure that the paint manufacturers and gasoline refineries would have stopped using lead anyway, and done a more efficient job of it, if there hadn't been that meddling regulation, because savvy consumers would have turned to less-toxic alternatives.

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Date: 2/6/11 18:42 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kylinrouge.livejournal.com
Unnecessary regulation! People would've just stopped buying homes with lead paint or leaded gasoline if you let the market handle it.

(no subject)

Date: 2/6/11 19:13 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
Just like they'dve stopped using Thalomide and there would never have been a Love Canal without those evil Liberals and their fiendish puppet-master Soros directing them.

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Date: 2/6/11 18:52 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bex.livejournal.com
There's a substantial body of literature connecting lead exposure with future criminality - mostly theoretical at this point, but in a "A has been shown to cause B" and "We know B is highly correlated, if not causally related, to C" kindasortathingyouknow. The evidence and theoretical connections have been summarized by my professors (and a peer) here (http://cjb.sagepub.com/content/36/9/954.short).

The bloody problem, excuse my French, is that this kind of theory gets very close to some modern biological theories of crime - not the old Lombroso-esque, "let me get out my face-measuring calipers and tell your future" theorizing, but very cutting-edge stuff that looks at hormone levels and body chemistry and the connection to impulsiveness and aggression. It doesn't do well with mainstream criminologists, and that's due to a number of reasons, in my opinion. First, biological theories send many social scientists into a frothy-mouthed panic where words like "Nazis" and "eugenics" and "genetic determinism" start flying around. Second, few trained sociologists (the parent discipline of criminology) know enough about biology, neurology, physiology or chemistry to feel comfortable drawing on those fields. It's a tragedy, IMO, because I think these fields have SO much to offer to both micro- and macro-level theories of behavior. I've been wanting to do biosocial work for a while now, but it's difficult as a student because you need a professor to take you on and open doors for you, and there's very few people doing this kind of work. Plus, you end up marginalizing yourself - it's hard to get published, hard to network, and generally just a huge uphill struggle. Not that it's not worth it, it's just that very few students are going to pursue this kind of stuff. I hope that that's changing, though. I think we've exhausted our current theoretical paradigm(s) in criminology, and I'd like to think that this biosocial stuff is the wave of the future.

To me, the importance of this connection is recognizing the structural forces that shape rates of crime and criminality. It's simple and, frankly, incorrect to assume that everyone is fully in control of their propensity to offend. Sure, we all make choices - offenders definitely make decisions about committing crime - but these choices are restrained by sociostructural factors that way, way too many people completely ignore, possibly because these factors are far less restrictive for members of their own social class. Kids in low-income housing areas are far more likely to be exposed to lead, far more likely to have their lead exposure go undiagnosed and untreated, far more likely to go to low-income schools with few resources to detect learning disabilities or lead exposure (resulting in increased disciplinary action when the child inevitably fails to conform to accepted behavioral standards), and this all leads right into long-standing and strongly-supported criminological theories about labeling, attachment and social support. So while, at some point, an individual child may be faced with a choice to offend - to hit another kid, to take that candy bar, to spray-paint that road sign - the child's decision-making capability is not equal in any sense to a child with access to greater resources and a healthier, more secure home life (nor, likely, are the consequences he will face for his offense).

(no subject)

Date: 2/6/11 23:05 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] anfalicious.livejournal.com
There seems to be a real push towards interdisciplinary studies at the moment. I've read into some of the pedagogy behind it during my education degree and it's getting more and more popular at a tertiary level, for just the reasons you suggest. People are starting to realise that the next big breakthrough in (for example) sociology isn't going to come from a sociologist, it's going to come from a sociologist/neuroscientist or team with good communication and understanding of each others' fields. I think it's really positive; the increased specialisation of the 20th century seems to have come with a lot of territorialism, which is counter productive to science.

Add to this how much more data we have at our fingertips because of the internet; I'll often read something in a journal and not quite get it, but will be able to surf around and teach myself in a small amount of time without leaving my chair. I don't profess to be expert in neurology, but I did an honours in Philosophy of Mind and it was really necessary to at least understand what the neurologists are saying, especially because there are actually quite a few neuro scientist/philosopher combinations that are driving the field forward.

(no subject)

Date: 2/6/11 20:02 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tridus.livejournal.com
That's really interesting, thanks for sharing. :)

(no subject)

Date: 2/6/11 22:59 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] anfalicious.livejournal.com
So that's why baby boomers are all stupid and angry.

(no subject)

Date: 4/6/11 02:06 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] geezer-also.livejournal.com
Yep, so many of us lived in government housing (projects) and they were slathered with lead paint :D

(no subject)

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