It's personal and Political.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

So, I first saw this as just an amusing macro.
Then I got the book in the pic as a xmas gift. I have been working my way through it. It's not a straight-up case for vegetarianism. It is written by a vegetarian--who admits as much. But from my reading of his work the authors point isn't to convert you, but to inform you and let you decide.

Now, I'm not a vegetarian. But I may become one. This book is making me pause and think.

Also I think I should say this early on: what I am discussing generally applies to the "first world". In places where food choices are not as plentiful as in the US or other industrialized and developed nations, perhaps the "choice" to eat an animal is one that is easily made as it's eat the animal or starve. So, forgive me if this doesn't exactly apply to you: I know we have an international crew here, but hear me out, if you would.

(for the sake of this post, I shall use "animals" to mean non-human animals)

We can all agree that animals have feelings, right?
Any of us who have had dogs or cats as pets know that they can feel pain, e.g. when we accidentally step on their tail, they shriek in pain and we acknowledge that. We use pain to teach our pets: if a dog does something he shouldn't we give him a thwack on the nose (not too hard of course, but enough to let him know: "don't do that!")

We imprison Micheal Vick for his dog-fights, right?

So we all agree animals can feel pain. And if you don't like my stated assumption that will not be contested in this post (looking at you, horse lover) you can ignore my post. There will not be a discussion of if animals feel pain here. It is assumed and accepted that they do.

Now, dogs aren't so different from pigs or chickens. Yes, there is a difference between them, but there's no reason to assume that pigs, turkeys, chickens and cattle don't feel pain.

Now, if you don't know, you should know that 95%+ of the meat eaten in the US is factory farmed. Now, factory farms are quite what you might imagine them to be. Gigantic "farms" that operate like a factory. The humane element has been removed and replaced with cold efficiency. If baby pigs aren't of the proper size, they will be picked up by their hind legs and have their heads smacked into the concrete floor and then tossed down a chute waiting for the truck that collects all the many pigs killed this way.

The horrors of factory farming are nearly too long to list. Not only do they morally mutilate those who must work in such factory farms, but they also cause significant health risks to humans. Factory farmed animals are fed antibiotics before they are sick--because the "farmers" (more appropriate might be: "factory owners") realize the conditions that their animals live in are so atrocious that they are *expecting* them to get sick.

Then there's the environmental damages done due to the billions of pounds of shit these animals produce. Now, usually shit can be useful as manure--right? But this shit is loaded with all sorts of crap (like antibiotics) and is created in such a quantity that it is not so great for the planet.

Then there's the fact that to produce all the meat we eat, we must feed the animals--and there are starving children who would very much like the food we give to our farmed animals. And yet, we don't. We give it to Bessie so we can have a nice big burger later.

So, I am here asking for help. Tell me, how may I order my next bacon cheeseburger without lamenting the utterly cruel treatment that my burger was built from? The expected death and suffering of factory farmed animals is documented and proven. There's an annual % of the animals *expected* to die at the farm, in transport, and an expected % of them who will not be stunned properly before being killed and an expected % of them will be improperly killed and thus suffer longer than needed. These expected percentages are such because the goal of factory farms is to make money: not to produce animal meat that comes from animals that were treated humanly. We treat our animals with no humanity--nor humanely. We speed up the process that animals are raised in by genetically mutating them. Turkeys on factory farms are *incapable* of reproducing on their own. The insanity of it all is just too much.

So yes, help me. I love my bacon cheeseburgers. They taste AMAZING.
But how can I ever order another one?

Is it as easy as:


And again: in places where meat is a needed part of the diet to fend off starvation, this doesn't apply. But in the US and Europe where factory farming is the predominant method of getting animal meat--can we really allow the cruelty to animals to continue? When we buy food at the supermarket for our BBQ aren't we really farming by proxy and thus supporting the inhumane treatment of our factory farmed animals? Do we need laws to prevent the inhumane treatment of animals? or should we all just be vegetarians and reduce the demand for meat so that the industry doesn't need to fit 5000 chickens in a space that could humanely fit 100?

Comments

[jlc20thmaine.livejournal.com]

Can plants feel pain? Do they have feelings? Can they communicate? What happens when we find that the answers to these questions are yes? What do we eat then?

If your issue is with factory farming then buy local. It helps the local economy, better quality meats, better for the environment, doesn't contain any added drugs, and some local farms even barter.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

As a resident of NYC, there's few local farms for me to get meat from if I want a burger.

And plants seem to lack a CNS which, from my understanding, is necessary to feel pain.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

Also: Do you eat meat? Do you see a problem with the factory farming system?

[mijopo.livejournal.com]

You're right to distinguish those who eat meat to survive, I'd suggest it's right to further distinguish between those who buy meat that has been humanely raised, although here YMMV and you need to try to find ways to verify what's meant by the claim and those who hunt vs. those who buy meat from the supermarket that's come from typical meat factories.

My rule of thumb on all this is the Kantian ethic extended to non-human animals "act so as to treat [animals] always as ends in themselves, never as mere means". This doesn't necessarily rule out ever killing an animal for food, it does rule out blithely disregarding the way in which the animal was treated or any sort of avoidable cruelty and possibly many/most farming techniques.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

Well, given that the vast majority of the meat in the US is produced by factory farming anyone who wanted to eat only humanely treated animals would have a lot of work cut out for them. The market for really-and-truly humanely treated animals is small (labels like "free-range" or "organic" mean virtually nothing)

Do you eat meat?

[meus-ovatio.livejournal.com]

It's a circle of life. We eat meat, cancer eats us.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

Does cancer speed up our growth so that we can be slaughtered in 39 days instead of 80? Does cancer do this knowing that this speeding up is going to cause all sorts of medical problems for the 39 days we do live for?

I can't stop myself...

[russj.livejournal.com]

Join PWEETA today!

(http://www.ooze.com/pweeta/)

Re: I can't stop myself...

[paedraggaidin.livejournal.com]

I'm a card-carrying member!

[spaz-own-joo.livejournal.com]

I eat meat, and whenever the option is available I go for organic meat - which doesn't necessarily guarantee against a factory farm environment, but the USDA certification does rule out most of the more horrific livestock abuses. out there. I could definitely be more diligent about this.

[meus-ovatio.livejournal.com]

I gave up when I realized everything is a marketing scam. "Free-range" simply means they give the chickens the option of going through a tiny hole to get outside--- an outside they have no concept of and no desire to find out about, being as how they are raised inside and only allowed the "option" later in life. The only lesson here, is that if you are that concerned about food and ethics, is to sell your car, quit your job and farm your own damn food.

[sealwhiskers.livejournal.com]

I'm a meat eater, but I live with a vegetarian (who's been so for decades). I do believe that in general, it is natural for us to eat a certain amount of animal protein. It is possible to live healthily and naturally without that, but you have to work harder to balance your diet with the right additions.

In general I think we eat too much, too crappily, we cook too little and I don't like the meat factories. As a consumer there is a lot a meat eater can do to live ethically. I eat burgers in certain places and restaurants that have the ecological guarantee (and humane guarantee, they give you the full information). I do eat in other restaurants too sometimes, but am more careful with my picks.
When I buy meat I do buy it either with a guarantee or from an eco farm. For a while my family where share holders in such a farm, which automatically gave us shares in fruits, meat and veggies, and we saw for ourselves how well they treated the chickens, pigs and sheep.
All this does cost more, and takes more planning, but amazingly it doesn't cost *that* much more.
People in general are just too sloppy and buy too much, they don't even consume all that they buy often enough. If you buy very high quality but limited amounts of meat, you think more about what you do with it. We are not rich in the least, but we don't go out to eat that much, and we cook.

There is a big market for ethical eating out there, people just need to push more, and investigate more. The main problem here, that I can see, is consumer laziness.
I'll never give up my meat and become vegetarian, but I do love animals.

[airiefairie.livejournal.com]

I am stunned how much of your eating habits and food philosophy I share. =)

[anyusa0030.livejournal.com]

the vegatables are produced in big farms where mostly inorganic fertilzers and pesticides are used both of which are worse for the enviroment than the poops of animals which are actually organic.
as far as labour abuse in big factories the same happen in farms where the tomatoes are produced so vegetable farmers are no better than animarl farmer.from your thread i get the feeling you are more bothered by how this animals are treated in the big factories ,if this is the case then stick to locally produced from small local farms,you will do more for the enviroment that way than you will turning vegeterian.thats my two cents.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

How come nobody is looking at this from a political angle?
Do animals not deserve to be protected from cruelty?

Why did we imprison Micheal Vick again?

[paedraggaidin.livejournal.com]

It's logic that decides the argument for me.

Major premise 1: Animals are made of meat.

Major premise 2: Meat is delicious.

Minor premise: God made animals.

Conclusion: God made animals delicious! And if He didn't want humans to eat animals, he wouldn't have made them out of meat.

See? Perfectly logical.

[fizzyland.livejournal.com]

Also, vegans are really annoying.

[ccr1138.livejournal.com]

There are already laws. I expect better enforcement would help.

But IMO you can't dwell on such things too much. I drink clean water every day, while millions die for lack of it. Should I feel guilty? Should I eschew air conditioning and riding in cars and plastic because they're bad for the planet?

Life is full of inequities, and from the moment we are born we become ravagers of the earth. Feeling guilty won't help.

There are things you can do, if you're a mind to. Campaign for better treatment of farm animals. Donate to good causes. Create awareness. But refusing to eat burgers, while noble, won't make a significant impact. It might assuage your guilt, but it does jack-all for the animals.

My two cents.

[http://users.livejournal.com/-wanderer-/]

Where does this "refusing to eat meat won't help" argument come from? It seems to crop up quite a bit. I am not a vegetarian at all, but clearly if you think that killing animals is wrong, or you think that the way it is commonly done is cruel, then of course refusing to eat that meat is the first step. Your argument is like saying a corrupt cop shouldn't decline bribes because it won't solve the problem of corrupt police in general, but he should join campaigns against it. That doesn't mean you are helping anything, it just makes you a hypocrite.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

Unlike most people I know what factory farming is and was morbid enough to look up pictures and videos of it. Then I slept like a baby knowing that in the time I spent doing that on the Internet thousands of people died in just that amount of time from easily preventable causes that the money spent and wasted on the Internet could have prevented a thousand times over, and woke up the next morning to enjoy a delicious breakfast of bacon and eggs.

Animal suffering is horrible, but Nature is Red in Tooth and Claw. And ion any case there are quite a few human problems that need resolution equally or superior to animal rights issues. I care more about people going through the mass rape epidemic in the Congo than I do with how people make foi gras.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

Certainly the mass rape epidemic in the congo is more important than the mistreatment of billions of birds and cattle.

But I don't suppose you economically support those committing the crimes in the congo, do you?
If you buy a burger, you are economically supporting the mistreatment of animals.

[yes-justice.livejournal.com]

We use pain to teach our pets: if a dog does something he shouldn't we give him a thwack on the nose (not too hard of course, but enough to let him know: "don't do that!")

In my over 30 years of adult experience caring for dogs, I can say with full confidence that rewarding the dog for doing the right thing is far more effective in producing an overall well behaved dog than is punishing for doing the wrong thing!

And I agree with the rest 100%.

All we need do is consider another species treating us as we treat other species and it should be evident that we're fucking up.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

Well, how do you reward him for doing the right thing when the right thing is merely not doing the wrong thing?

E.G. you want a dog *not* to jump on people, so, we were told, when Kyle (our dearly beloved and much missed black lab) jumped up on people we were to grab his legs, so he was stuck and then give him a kick--again, not with the intent of causing bodily harm, but of causing the pain that teaches: hey, don't do that again!

Do you suggest giving treats when people came over and he didn't jump? That might work too--but when he does jump, do you just deny the treat? Would that really would quite as well?

[mybodymycoffin.livejournal.com]

Vegetarianism is good. Raising, slaughtering, or hunting, and eating animals is good. Mistreatment of animals is bad. All of these are simultaneously correct.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

It gets messier when you start trying to define exactly what "mistreatment of animals" is, dontcha think?

Also, let me point out that animals are assholes

[fizzyland.livejournal.com]

Seriously, an hour of nature documentaries the other night had me ready to become a poacher. First, I got to see how chimpanzees routinely kill the fuck out of any monkeys they can despite a lack of dietary need - the alpha gives out the bloody chunks as rewards. Second, I watched male lions take over a pride and the first thing that alpha did was kill all the cubs.

Re: Also, let me point out that animals are assholes

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

That's lovely. So once again we have devolved into the: "but they do it too!" sort of argument? Really?

And while Hobbes may be partially right about life in the state of nature, we are calculatingly cruel on a scale so large it's hard to imagine.

Billions of animals per year. Made to live their entire lives in their own shit and never see the sun or do any of the species-specific behaviors that nature intended them to do.

Yes, nature is a motherfucker--it kills baby cats and baby humans and baby lions. But we are the ones calculating just how little food we can give to a billion chickens while still keeping them tasty.

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

When we can bioengineer people to be photosynthetic, then I'll give up eating meat.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

That's dumb--there are countless examples of vegetarians living perfectly healthy lives.

Way to once again show that you are heartless.

[mrsilence.livejournal.com]

There is nothing inherently wrong with torturing or killing animals OR people.

We just don't like the way it makes us feel. And that's what we call morality.

Ironic Icon is Ironic

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

False. Morality is real.

You can say whatever you like, but torture is immoral, prima facie.

[chron-job.livejournal.com]

Have you read The expanding Circle by Peter singer? If what you want is a direct examination of the ethics, and thus the politics, of animal exploitation, its a good read.

My thoughts, which might be re-iterating someone else's above (I have yet to read the sub threads) is that the feeling of pain and suffering exist on a sliding scale. There is a difference between experiencing pain, and mechanistically reacting to mechanical cellular damage. Plants exist on one end of the spectrum, we on the other. I think the typical farm animals are very very much closer to our end than the plant side.

As we move along this sliding scale, and as the experience of suffering analogous to ours becomes more inescapable, our ethical responsibility to mitigate and prevent that suffering also increases. I have no ethical problem with the farming of vegetables. I have little ethical problem with the farming of fish. I have a large ethical problem with the farming of pigs.

Yet I eat meat. I have lived with and loved vegans, and have spent years that way myself. But I lapse, just like I lapse back to smoking. I know its bad, but do it anyway.

I look forward, somewhat cowardly, to a technological solution which might free me from the forked choice between self-loathing on the one hand, and escape into self deception via moral rationalization on the other. Cultured meat! Meat grown from cells into mere tissue that is no part of a system that has awareness and experience... a vat grown commodity toward which the term 'suffering' is little more applicable than toward the wheat and sugar we feed it. I hope that the obvious economic advantages of such (why waste resources on building/maintaining a brain?) might free me.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

Perhaps Douglas Adams had the answer all along...

[http://users.livejournal.com/-wanderer-/]

I agree 100% that this is a moral problem (though I guess I'm a hypocrite since I don't buy my meat that carefully, though I don't eat it all that much). The only way it will ever be solved is if the government subsidizes ethical food rather than giant agrobusinesses (i.e., this problem will never be solved).

[geezer-also.livejournal.com]

Reading through this thread has got me to thinking. It seems that the worst part is inflicting pain, and do plants feel pain, or how much pain do fish feel, and all that. In fact, several threads in this post dealt almost exclusively with the pain and cruelty aspects. If it got brought up, I missed it, but I started wondering; how much if any pain does an aborted fetus feel? Or does it depend on how far along it is; or is that the elephant in the room?

[yes-justice.livejournal.com]

Wait, are you suggesting we eat zygotes?

[mrsilence.livejournal.com]

Wow, that's gotta be some record for how quickly it reached 200 comments. That was like maybe an hour?

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

Closer to six hours

[farchivist.livejournal.com]

Tell me, how may I order my next bacon cheeseburger without lamenting the utterly cruel treatment that my burger was built from?

Simple. They're not sentient.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

But that's false.

[anosognosia.livejournal.com]

"But how can I ever order another one?"

Sounds like a good question to reflect on next time you do order another one.

[eracerhead.livejournal.com]

Much of your argument goes away when you stop anthropomorphizing animals. IMO your feelings about the matter are consistent with an urban dweller who is largely disconnected from agriculture. When I lived in NYC I was a vegetarian and there were plenty of services available to suit me. When I moved to the country I got scoffed at and I could barely order a plate of vegetables that weren't cooked with bacon. This and the fact that I actually knew farmers and ranchers got me to investigate agriculture.

It isn't nearly as bad as your sources portray. It is mostly the result of a group of people having to do the dirty work so that other's sensibilities aren't perturbed. Fact is, you have to kill the animal one way or another. A quick blow to the head is more humane than skinning and gutting while the animal is still conscious. It is more humane than slitting it's throat and having it bleed out as required by kosher laws.

Efficient rendering of meat means that fewer economic resources are used to produce a product. This frees up resources for other things. Competition has largely driven this efficiency and produced a market for advanced technology. Thus, chicks are hatched on a mechanized conveyor system which results in higher yield and is absolutely amazing to watch. There is no shortage of these products in the western world, in the US we could easily produce a surplus. The reasons why this does not trickle down to the fourth world are complicated but having everyone switch to vegetarianism isn't going to solve the problem as we already have the capacity to produce more than we consume.

To say that you're a vegetarian because ethically you would find it difficult to kill an animal yourself is fine, but don't do it to save the world. You aren't saving anything by becoming vegetarian, you are afforded the luxury of becoming one by virtue of your status.

[xxfenwaynation.livejournal.com]

Forgive my possibly naive question, but, are we even sure these animals are aware of the fact that they should consider themselves to be "suffering"?

The way that they're raised and kept seems like suffering to you because, well, you're a human who is free to come and go as you please. But if an animal is born in an enclosed space and kept in an enclosed space, do they really have the mental capacity to process that there is any other form of living? Of course, you could counter that that's not how animals SHOULD live, but the animal doesn't know that. Isn't it just as likely that they're "happy" in life simply because they don't know any other way?