Is Democracy Always a Good Thing?

[singlethink.livejournal.com]

Now I'm not saying that this is what I believe. It's just a thought that I have been mulling over and I kind of want to see if it sticks.

The riots in Egypt have made me consider what would happen if Egypt if the rioters happen to overthrow the government? Assume that Egypt doesn't become Iran part two and actually becomes a democracy with fair and open elections, etc. In the case of a democratic Egypt, there is a high likelihood that the Muslim Brotherhood takes a great deal of control in the country. While probably not as bad as Hamas or Hezbollah, they're not exactly pro-west. Egypt is currently an important power balance to Iran in the Arab world and if Egypt were to scoot over toward the fundies, that counterpoint is weakened or lost. Also important is that Egypt is in some ways the center of the Arab world and also an important bridge between the Arab world and the west.

The other issue is that it may put the peace treaty with Israel at risk. Part of the reason Israel has been able to tone down its military and pull out of Gaza is because of Egyptian support on the other boarder. A hostile Egypt probably means another occupied Gaza.

So is an increased disconnect between the Arab world and the west, the loss of a counterweight to Iran, an occupied Gaza, and an increasingly militarized Israel < Democracy?

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/106969/20110131/israel-anxiously-watching-events-in-egypt-fears-fall-of-mubarak.htm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/31/israel-egypt-mubarak-peace-treaty-fears

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2045248,00.html

Comments

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

Proposition 8 is a fine answer to show that no, it is not always a good thing. So is Jim Crow. I guarantee you if Jim Crow had been put to a popular vote in the 1960s it would still be here in all its gruesome power now. You forget that Iran is the most democratic Muslim power in the Middle East.

[notmrgarrison.livejournal.com]

If Pat Robertson were in charge of deciding who was allowed to run for President, Congress and the Senate, I doubt you'd be calling the US a democracy.

[meus-ovatio.livejournal.com]

Nothing is always a "good" thing. If something was, we'd find it and create Paradise and have a perfect world based on this always good thing. Democracy in Egypt would do little to push the Muslim world farther away from the West, since leaders are easily accountable, pushable and manipulated. Plus, subjecting hitherto uninvolved elements to the heavy weights and boulders of statecraft does a lot to keep their campaign rhetoric little more than commercials to get elected. So, they can say all they want. Once they get to the big leagues, its a whole different game.

[mijopo.livejournal.com]

Hey, stop asking hard questions we just want to post things to our FB status like "I stand with the Egyptian people", tell ourselves we've helped make the world a better place and get back to playing Farmville.

More seriously, democracy isn't necessarily a better thing. We can envision democracies that display complete disregard for minority right, that remove some of the meager tools to address poverty in Egypt, that vote in a corrupt government that takes steps to suppress further democratic reforms or rolls them back from their nascent state. Or, removing the heavy thumb of the government may increase the amount of corruption and crime, see "democratic" Russia. Now, the more repressive the regime being replaced is, the more likely it is that democracy will bring about an improvement, though.

but I'm a little torn here. History is littered with examples of dictatorships being held up by external forces that were concerned about their own interests, not the interests of those in the country. Be careful of whose interests you're looking out for when you express concern about democratic reforms.

[verytwistedmind.livejournal.com]

Hey, stop asking hard questions we just want to post things to our FB status like "I stand with the Egyptian people", tell ourselves we've helped make the world a better place and get back to playing Farmville.


Reason number 42 why I prefer LJ over FB.

FB is not for real discussion. It's to wish your coworkers and associates happy b-day with a simple post a their 'wall'. It's also agreat way to make yourself look normal and boring for HR departments.

[allhatnocattle.livejournal.com]

Democracy cannot be relied upon to always return desired results. When democracy voted in Hamas, it was the will of the people. Israel might not like them, but they should respect that and deal with them regardless.

A dictatorship isn't inherently good or bad either. They might not be American puppets, but they're usually conducting semi-consistent behaviour. And that reliability makes America job easier.

Best of both worlds is a democracy where the outcome is foregone conclusion and we can depend on the winner. Almost as good as country with only two choices on the ballot.

[the-rukh.livejournal.com]

It's a better thing.

[pastorlenny.livejournal.com]

The West is so awesome. It must be preserved at all costs.

Also, why do people continue to use the term "fundies" -- as if the worst and most hateful form of a religion were its truest by definition?

[the-rukh.livejournal.com]

Because for a lot of the major religions we encounter, that's the truth!




Serious answer though, there is generally a strong correlation between those who hold ideological purity above other social concerns and those willing to commit violence for their needs because again those social concerns are secondary. It's not necessarily *because* of the religion or what it says, communism doesn't advocate violence either, but communist fundamentalists do the same thing.

Its not personal. :P

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

Logic and reason, Pastor. Logic and reason.

[jerseycajun.livejournal.com]

Democracy has some positive aspects to it which make it appealing and desirable, but only insofar as it is incorporated as one component of a means to selecting a government (certainly not the only nor even the primary one) and must be placed as subservient to checks and balances.

Left unchecked, mob rule can be every bit as discomforting as rule by dictatorship, if you find yourself not a member of the 'mob' so to speak.

Democracy is good--unless

[russj.livejournal.com]

Democracy is good, as long as the people make good choices.

Without a firm commitment to human rights, deriving from natural law, the majority will always persecute an individual who irritates them.

In the USA, the Judicial branch and its use of the Constitution to nullify laws which violate individual rights has saved this country from many--but not all--bad decisions.

Scripture gives an interesting perspective on this:

"Now it is not common that the voice of the people desireth anything contrary to that which is right; but it is common for the lesser part of the people to desire that which is not right; therefore this shall ye observe and make it your law--to do your business by the voice of the people.
And if the time comes that the voice of the people doth choose iniquity, then is the time that the judgments of God will come upon you; yea, then is the time he will visit you with great destruction even as he has hitherto visited this land."
(Book of Mormon | Mosiah 29:26 - 27)

It can be said that the US Civil War was a judgment against that country for accepting and tolerating the practice of slavery.

We have yet to reap the judgment for the practice of widespread abortion on demand.

Interesting you said that. The guy in my icon did see it as God's judgment:

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

The Southern rebellion was largely the outgrowth of the Mexican war. Nations, like individuals, are punished for their transgressions. We got our punishment in the most sanguinary and expensive war of modern times.

A few thoughts.

[verytwistedmind.livejournal.com]

Democracy is mob rule.

Democracy always fails.

Only a Republic can succeed as a form of government where the people rule themselves.

In truth this is more about bad economics than it is about democracy/self rule/dicators.

Re: A few thoughts.

[thies.livejournal.com]

single party market oriented socialist/communist republic of china, woohoo

[devil-ad-vocate.livejournal.com]

Democracy should be given a chance in Egypt. Faux News has been getting their panties in a twist for the last three days with "OMG! What if the Muslim Brotherhood takes over?" Not likely... Egypt isn't Iran. As for Israel, the Egyptian army isn't in any position to wage a war against anyone - until they figure out who is in charge of the military. Once again the U.S. is clueless, and American influence is non-existent.

[anadinboy.livejournal.com]

theres just been a random egptian woman on tv, totally western apperance, supporting democracy, said she doesnt care if the muslim brotherhood get in power because its "the will of the ppl".

[dv8nation.livejournal.com]

So a group she might be against may gain power but she's willing to accept that if that's the result of a democractic election. Yeah, she's evil.

[anadinboy.livejournal.com]

islam provides a collective pool out of wich will come an endless outpouring of terrorists like frogs. Now you can harp on about the frogs, but at some point you have to address the frikkin pond in the garden!

christianity is similar but differant, as the christian pool produces a differant kind of frog, thus making their pool of origin differant. For example only american christians shoot abortion doctors, so it must be the americanness of the pool. if all muslim terror/crime came from one nation, id blame that nation rather than the religion

[dv8nation.livejournal.com]

Democracy isn't perfect. But the trick is that if the Egyptions vote in some assholes then they can vote them out in a few years. It's worked fairly well for us for over 200 years.

[the-rukh.livejournal.com]

Unless those assholes decide they don't want to be voted out. I mean Egypt has 'technically' been a republic for a long time. I mean they have elections! Its just that there's only one candidate.

I think they need to fix those structural problems before they even worry about leadership succession.

[anadinboy.livejournal.com]

america has never had the choice at the ballot box some nations are faced with. The usa is effectivly a one party state, as in both parties are loyal successors to the founders, the revolution and the constitution. Some countries are faced with radicaly differant world views competing with each other. id say "phalocentric binary opposits" if i wanted to be french.

[the-rukh.livejournal.com]

I think that's more an American cultural problem though. The parties represent the 'big tents' of the opposite sides of major issues. As a people, I think we're rather dichotomous as is. Right vs wrong, good vs evil, white vs coloreds, etc. One could argue that its not so much as we're polar as we have one pole and everybody else, which essentially works out similarly.

I agree we'd be much better off if we could break that down in order to give us more choice and thereby better able to select between the alternatives, but I think you're talking about a fundamental change in who we are as a people(at least 51% of us as a people) to make that happen.

In the end, it doesn't really matter what the US wants.

[squidb0i.livejournal.com]

What's going to happen is what's going to happen, and we have to put on our collective big girl panties and deal with how it all shakes out.

Aheheheh.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

Pretty sure Muhammad Mossadeqh and Patrice Lumumba expected the same thing.

[sealwhiskers.livejournal.com]

I think the valid points you present still lack one big part of the equation in what Egypt has been about for the last decades. Whomever comes to power would want to try to preserve tourism. Tourism from the west and other parts of the world has played a big part in Egypt's economy for many decades and bee another big reason for why it as a country has distinguished themselves form other countries in the region. Something similar can be said about Tunisia, on a smaller scale. (I've been to both countries as a tourist, and tourism there has been HUGE)
Tourism and its economic effects also ironically enough has played a part in why people in these countries are protesting in such a successful way, with the living standards its given Egypt, there has come insight into other parts of the world and their systems, and a self awareness which if very high.

[geezer-also.livejournal.com]

Excellent point. From what I've heard the tourism trade is already suffering.
(altho to be honest as much as I would like to go to Egypt, I certainly wouldn't want to be there now :D)

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

Is Democracy Always a Good Thing?

As Tony Robbins put it, what's your outcome? That should always be what's in your mind when you're figuring out what you're going to do. You have to know what you want before you can decide if the path you're taking is good or not.

[mrsilence.livejournal.com]

Obviously not. Always good = perfect.

We can't expect a system that is perfect, merely one that is good as much as possible and/or better than others.

[singlethink.livejournal.com]

Ok, I probably should have said "is democratization always an improvement?"

[allhatnocattle.livejournal.com]

USA is rarely pro-democracy. USA rarely sides with populists revolts. USA wants a puppet they own and they control.

Egyptions do not know what they want right now. All they know is what they don't want. One of the things they don't want is $1.5billion in US aid. The money only goes to prop up the dictatorship and in return has their government do whatever USA wants.

Right now USA is walking tightrope; on the one hand saying they are pro-populist, pro-democracy, and pro-lollipops, pro-sunshine and pro-puppies. But on the other hand we know they are itching to control the situation and keep a perfect loyal lap dog like Mubarak in power.