(no subject)
20/12/10 16:53![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
futurebird.livejournal.com posting in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png){kind=small}
talkpoliticsThis article is sort of clumsy. It seems like she's about to make the point that far too many of the black women we see in media as examples of beauty are still closer to a Eurocentric beauty model, or they are "anything but African American, slave decent, people like us" (ie. Wek, who is stunning, but looks quite different from most black American woman.)
But, then she stops short of saying that, and gets caught up in her own personal BS. This is easy to do. I do it. I've seen other women do it. In addition the article talks far to much about what black men want-- as if that were the most central issue. She equates the term 'Exotic' with those black women who have a mixture of European and black features-- something that didn't really ring true to me, but maybe we have experienced the word in different ways.
That all said, I think that the still prevalent and powerful Eurocentric/anything but you-people nature of print and popular media can have a damaging impact on the mind of young black girls and boys. It can warp our ideas about beauty no matter what type of sexual or aesthetic preferences we may have. It can influence what black people and people of all races think will be desirable in a partner. We each tell ourselves that our choice of partners is independent social pressures, but looking at population-wide trends suggests otherwise.
The Wrong Kind of Different
As a young girl in a mostly white environment I never thought of myself as exotic or special. There was a girl who moved to our suburb from Iraq and she was very exotic and special in the eyes of my peers. Now in my 8-year-old mind that was very enviable! I wished I could be exotic in that way. I knew nothing of the BS and baggage that my Iraq-born peer must have been facing-- to my mind it was like being a princess ...to come from a far away place... to be different. It never occurred to me that I was pretty different-- that was the wrong kind of different. I thought I was more plain than everyone else since, in the words of one teacher who thought she was helping "brown is the most common skin tone in the world." How do we internalize all of this by such a tender age? I was not the only young person who felt this way-- it was a view I shared with and learned from my mostly white peers.
Yo' Mama.
She's so, dark, fat, nappy and big lipped. And she's on welfare. Why did the boys, both black and white love these jokes so much? They play a big role in spelling out what a woman should NOT be. My parents deftly blocked some of this, my mom went out of her way to impress upon me that dark skin is beautiful. That darker skin could be more beautiful. I knew enough to say "Hey that's not funny!" when the dark skin or nappy hair jokes came out. Sadly, I also learned that being fat and being on welfare are solely matters of Personal Responsibility(TM). And I had a pretty warped idea of what "fat" meant. My grandma has warped ideas about nappy hair. (she thinks it's gross) I know a black woman who loves her body but hides from the sun like getting a few shades darker would kill her. (do you know many of us are vitamin D deficient?) So, some of these jokes stick to us. In what ways were notions of beauty spelled out for you as a young person?
Solution
We need to see beautiful woman who are dark, fat, black american and nappy. Well, in fact, I see such woman every day. But, I do not see them in media-- and that may seem minor but I think it can have a huge impact. We need to have this beauty publicly identified an affirmed shout it from the rooftops this is what is beautiful, pretty, lovely, elegant. Use these words. Not some other almost there words, like 'curvy' or 'strong.' To correct this kind of thinking you need to go in the opposite direction with equal and opposite force. It's not enough to have one or two such icons... how many thousands of times have you seen a woman who is thin, white, with european features described as beautiful? We don't even notice it any more. It takes time to unlearn. It's not enough to decide that it is true just for ourselves, we need to make it clear for this next generation of girls-- who are bust internalizing most of the same BS we grew up with. Nor is it enough to have a few women here and there who are black but with very european features, or features not common in American black women-- that too sends a negative message. Like the white guys in college who explained to me that black woman are beautiful if they are the "right kid" of black woman. Which brings me to this last point; cultural change may start from within the black community, but this issue (which is only a small part of a larger issue that involves women of all races) is something that people of all races should think about and take up. Just as fighting homophobia is not just work for gay people-- this doesn't get solved unless we all talk about it openly. Demand better media and discover the greater spectrum of beauty.
But, then she stops short of saying that, and gets caught up in her own personal BS. This is easy to do. I do it. I've seen other women do it. In addition the article talks far to much about what black men want-- as if that were the most central issue. She equates the term 'Exotic' with those black women who have a mixture of European and black features-- something that didn't really ring true to me, but maybe we have experienced the word in different ways.
That all said, I think that the still prevalent and powerful Eurocentric/anything but you-people nature of print and popular media can have a damaging impact on the mind of young black girls and boys. It can warp our ideas about beauty no matter what type of sexual or aesthetic preferences we may have. It can influence what black people and people of all races think will be desirable in a partner. We each tell ourselves that our choice of partners is independent social pressures, but looking at population-wide trends suggests otherwise.
The Wrong Kind of Different
As a young girl in a mostly white environment I never thought of myself as exotic or special. There was a girl who moved to our suburb from Iraq and she was very exotic and special in the eyes of my peers. Now in my 8-year-old mind that was very enviable! I wished I could be exotic in that way. I knew nothing of the BS and baggage that my Iraq-born peer must have been facing-- to my mind it was like being a princess ...to come from a far away place... to be different. It never occurred to me that I was pretty different-- that was the wrong kind of different. I thought I was more plain than everyone else since, in the words of one teacher who thought she was helping "brown is the most common skin tone in the world." How do we internalize all of this by such a tender age? I was not the only young person who felt this way-- it was a view I shared with and learned from my mostly white peers.
Yo' Mama.
She's so, dark, fat, nappy and big lipped. And she's on welfare. Why did the boys, both black and white love these jokes so much? They play a big role in spelling out what a woman should NOT be. My parents deftly blocked some of this, my mom went out of her way to impress upon me that dark skin is beautiful. That darker skin could be more beautiful. I knew enough to say "Hey that's not funny!" when the dark skin or nappy hair jokes came out. Sadly, I also learned that being fat and being on welfare are solely matters of Personal Responsibility(TM). And I had a pretty warped idea of what "fat" meant. My grandma has warped ideas about nappy hair. (she thinks it's gross) I know a black woman who loves her body but hides from the sun like getting a few shades darker would kill her. (do you know many of us are vitamin D deficient?) So, some of these jokes stick to us. In what ways were notions of beauty spelled out for you as a young person?
Solution
We need to see beautiful woman who are dark, fat, black american and nappy. Well, in fact, I see such woman every day. But, I do not see them in media-- and that may seem minor but I think it can have a huge impact. We need to have this beauty publicly identified an affirmed shout it from the rooftops this is what is beautiful, pretty, lovely, elegant. Use these words. Not some other almost there words, like 'curvy' or 'strong.' To correct this kind of thinking you need to go in the opposite direction with equal and opposite force. It's not enough to have one or two such icons... how many thousands of times have you seen a woman who is thin, white, with european features described as beautiful? We don't even notice it any more. It takes time to unlearn. It's not enough to decide that it is true just for ourselves, we need to make it clear for this next generation of girls-- who are bust internalizing most of the same BS we grew up with. Nor is it enough to have a few women here and there who are black but with very european features, or features not common in American black women-- that too sends a negative message. Like the white guys in college who explained to me that black woman are beautiful if they are the "right kid" of black woman. Which brings me to this last point; cultural change may start from within the black community, but this issue (which is only a small part of a larger issue that involves women of all races) is something that people of all races should think about and take up. Just as fighting homophobia is not just work for gay people-- this doesn't get solved unless we all talk about it openly. Demand better media and discover the greater spectrum of beauty.
(no subject)
Date: 20/12/10 22:14 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 20/12/10 22:22 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 20/12/10 22:24 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 20/12/10 22:25 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 20/12/10 22:28 (UTC)2 on what is beautiful
Date: 20/12/10 22:31 (UTC)I have always preferred women of color. I have noticed that dark skin women don't typically date men as fair skinned as I am. However, every dog has his day even me ;)
The part of your post I question is two points: Fat and Nappy as beautiful.
Fat: I think a healthy body weight is attractive (I prefer thick just not obese.). Do we really want to find beauty in obesity?
* African American women have the highest rates of being overweight or obese compared to other groups in the U.S. About four out of five African American women are overweight or obese.1
* In 2007, African Americans were 1.4 times as likely to be obese as Non- Hispanic Whites.
* From 2003-2006, African American women were 70% more likely to be obese than Non-Hispanic White women.
* In 2003-2004, African American children between ages 6 -17 were 1.3 times as likely to be overweight than Non-Hispanic Whites.
http://www.raceandhealth.omhrc.gov/templates/content.aspx?lvl=3&lvlID=537&ID=6456
Don't we need to strongly encourage healthy body weights as beautiful, especially among minorities who suffer greater from twice as likely to have diabetes? Shouldn't we culturally discourage the overweight?
Nappy
Well I guess this depends on how you mean the word. I take 'nappy headed' as to refer to a person who has tightly coiled hair (typically this is a black person) with the caveat of being undone. Many women have nappy hair but they take good care of it so it isn't nappy. Whether that be conditioners, braids, straightened, or just keeping it picked out good. I like a woman who takes care of her hair. It shows she values herself and her appearance. I don't think I want to embrace 'nappy' as beautiful. Just like I don't like tangled up or frizzy hair.
Re: 2 on what is beautiful
Date: 20/12/10 22:37 (UTC)Some women will have larger hips and thighs, some will have larger busts-- in media we get one and only one body type 95% of the time: very small, tall and on the thin side of average. I think that is ridiculous.
I want to see, mediums-sized women and fat, yes big FAT women recognized for their beauty in my media or I'm not buying in to it. Sorry.
(no subject)
Date: 20/12/10 22:41 (UTC)Re: 2 on what is beautiful
Date: 20/12/10 23:00 (UTC)So, you take care of your hair. That wouldn't fall under the 'nappy' catagory as I define it.
I am pretty sure I didn't say only one body type should be acceptable as beautiful. How did you take that from my comment? A healthy body weight can very from individual to individual but obesse is not healthy and dangerous. Especially among women of color who suffer the greatest from diabetes. It affects 1 in 4 Black women ages 55 years and older.
Some women will have larger hips and thighs, some will have larger busts
I LOVE ALL OF THESE! :D
Re: 2 on what is beautiful
Date: 20/12/10 23:21 (UTC)If you want to talk about diet and health I have quite a lot to say about that. I think when we call "obesity" the problem rather than "malnutrition" it hides a lot of things such as: Overweight people can be healthy. People at a normal weight can have bad diets and excercise habits and be unhealthy. There is no one ideal BMI or weight that works for everyone.
So, a healthy weight will be different for different people. Some of the time it is VERY different. Of course, we want everyone to be healthy-- that just makes life better in general. But, I just don't see how shame and stigma help here-- A strong sense of self-worth requires a foundation of UNCONDITIONAL self-love. For eating disordered women (who may be over or under weight...or "normal" weight whatever that means) our sense of self-love is always CONDITIONAL-- it's based on what the scale says or what dress size we have. This is, of course, BS.
If we want to talk about malnutrition on a population-wide scale in the USA maybe we can talk about making fresh food more accessible, and fixing school lunches, and NOT cutting sports from our inner-city schools... we could talk about access to good health care and safe walkable communities.
Too often though, the conversation about obesity is just something like "Down with fatties they are lazy!" And that's just useless.
And none of this has anything to do with beauty-- not directly at least.
(no subject)
Date: 20/12/10 23:36 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 20/12/10 23:36 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 20/12/10 23:47 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 20/12/10 23:53 (UTC)In the U.S. we're pushed such a narrow hard to obtain ideal too. It has to be hard to obtain, if it was easy people wouldn't buy makeup. If they already look like the ideal of beauty, why do they need the pushup bras, super spendy hair shampoo and fake eyelashes?
If we could accept that it's ok to not be the ideal, it would be fine if being overweight was a negative, because your physical appearance is not the sole measure of your worth, and in fact, not a huge deal. Like men! (thought beauty product companies have been doing their dastardlyest to change that, fuck you axe)
This is how I know we still live in a paternalistic society. If I was a woman, there's no way I'd put up with all this beauty shit. Hell, shaving legs alone, screw that! I've all but given up on shaving my face because its too annoying.
But no, I don't think being overweight should be portrayed as beautiful. I think it should be negative, just, as I said, overall physical things need to be less important.
As for the hair thing, skin thing, I totally agree. I feel like its again an arbitrary ideal because its harder to obtain. You'll sell a lot more to people who feel bad about themselves than good. I thing black people who embrace their frizzy hair are beautiful. They should enjoy it.
(no subject)
Date: 20/12/10 23:58 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 21/12/10 00:01 (UTC)I debated saying something-- since I think it is a nice positive sentiment. But I do think reading this post and concluding "every woman is beautiful" could mean one missed the point.
The point was that in the US (and the west) there is a very narrow notion of beauty that is closely tied to whiteness. The more 'white' the more beautiful. But, this is very destructive and narrow way of looking at things-- physical beauty is a far more diverse thing.
But that's not to say that it isn't a real thing-- a concept with meaning. Part of it is style, and even the way one moves, part of it is just physical.
It's a subtle point-- but in some ways if saying that a thick dark skinned woman with nappy hair is beautiful means automatically that every single women-- even those who don't give a damn about beauty or how they look is beautiful too-- well, that's sort of like saying beauty just doesn't exist-- or like a thick dark skinned woman with nappy hair is so far from the everyday notions of physical beauty one might as well toss their hand in the air and say well then EVERYTHING is beautiful--
I'm certian the comment was not meant in that way-- Yet oddly that is how it seems to sound.
(no subject)
Date: 21/12/10 00:05 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 21/12/10 00:15 (UTC)Eh? I don't think 'my permission' has anything to do with any of this, nor anyone elses. What we're talking about is society's opinion, yes?
Some kind of punishment for being fat?
Its not 'punishment', its not accepting it as normal. And mind you, I don't mean 'fat' like society, where anything over a stick is overweight, but its unhealthy. We shouldn't look at smoking as beautiful either, you know? It doesn't mean the person is 'ugly', but we shouldn't just be ok with unhealthy behavior.
I mean what are you so scared of if an overweight woman is described as beautiful in mass media
I'm not even a little bit 'scared'. Why are you jumping like that?
(no subject)
Date: 21/12/10 00:28 (UTC)I assure you i wasnt missing the point.
I say there's something beautiful in everyone. Physically, too. And i think if there's one beautiful thing in someone (everyone), then they're beautiful. But i know i'm that weird. And probably silly.
Btw i didnt mention - i think all men are beautiful too. That must make me double weirder :)
(no subject)
Date: 21/12/10 00:30 (UTC)FTFY
Too many, since most of the time it's not true.
Basically, the media's perception of beauty is screwy, in lots of ways.
(no subject)
Date: 21/12/10 00:30 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 21/12/10 00:31 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 21/12/10 00:33 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 21/12/10 00:33 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 21/12/10 00:41 (UTC)