Stolen Valor

[foxglovehp.livejournal.com]

I admit a bias here, as a professional soldier, I consider Stolen Valor absolutely reprehensible.  Public floggings or keel-hauling seems to me to be about right.  What are your thoughts?

Comments

[rasilio.livejournal.com]

It is indeed a morally reprehensible activity and legally is certainly a form of fraud. Whether it rises to the level of a criminal act however depends on what one attempts to do with the "Stolen Valor".

[box-in-the-box.livejournal.com]

Agreed, and I say this as a former enlisted sailor who finds this sort of impersonation despicable. To be honest, it pisses me off so much that I don't even trust myself to have an objective opinion on what should be done about it. That final quote at the end of the clip really encapsulates its harm to me, because as offensive as it is for someone to take credit for a sacrifice they never made, the worst part of it is that it risks invalidating the actual sacrifices made by others, so that, if somebody says, "Oh, I was in the war, and based on my experience, I think we should do [fill in the blank]," someone else who disagrees with that opinion can simply say, "How do we know you were in the war at all?" It short-circuits the fuck out of the ability of vets to advocate for their own based on the needs they've seen.

[luvdovz.livejournal.com]

3 posts by the same poster within the same day is a new world record, as far as memory serves. ;)

[foxglovehp.livejournal.com]

Don't get used to it. I usually suck at posting.

[luvdovz.livejournal.com]

Oh I hope not.

[yes-justice.livejournal.com]

People believe what they want to believe.

There are worse crimes than impersonation.

[ygrii-blop.livejournal.com]

I've run into so many former Green Berets and former SEALs I'm starting to think this is a common neurosis among the population. None of them had to go to special training. They were all recruited from the regular troops. I fondly remember the 22-year-old Vietnam vet, former Ranger I met in 1985. He used to buy me beer. In a nation that fetishizes its military as much as the U.S., this phenomenon can't be surprising.

[il-mio-gufo.livejournal.com]

In a nation that fetishizes its military as much as the U.S., this phenomenon can't be surprising.

But doesn't that happen only in certain pockets of society? The fetishizing and all?

[spaz-own-joo.livejournal.com]

I think corporal punishment is probably not where a civilian's mind would jump first. Sure, fraud and impersonation are serious matters, but lots of other criminals actually hurt people.

[foxglovehp.livejournal.com]

Part of it has to to with the act itself. And I admit that simply wearing awards that one hasn't earned is probably relatively victimless. But it does take something away from the people who did earn the awards. But as was pointed out above, there is also the matter of what someone attempts to do with the impersonation. The punishment should act as a deterrent at least so people don't attempt to ride a fictitious history to potentially harmful situations.

[box-in-the-box.livejournal.com]

And I admit that simply wearing awards that one hasn't earned is probably relatively victimless. But it does take something away from the people who did earn the awards.

Yeah, if you're just using it as an excuse to score some free drinks and easy trim, then I think you're an asshole, but you're not really doing much damage in the grand scheme of things. Once you start advocating for military or political policies based on service experiences that you never actually had, then you're doing a seriously reprehensible disservice to those whom you claim to be supporting.

Christ, there's a reason why, even as someone who deployed as part of Operations Enduring and Iraqi Freedom, I go out of my way to qualify that I was serving as a JO on board an aircraft carrier at the time, because I'd feel guilty as all hell if people thought I was speaking for the ground-pounders who were actually getting their asses shot at.

[sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com]

I know what you mean, I always feel awkward being thanked for my service considering that I spent 99.9% of my time well away from anything that could be considered the line of fire.

Sure, flying has it's dangers but they have more to do with poor ATC and worse weather than enemy action.

[prader.livejournal.com]

Yeah, but your job was to dive into ocean water or pickup wounded from a potentially hot LZ. That's fucking badass.

And I think I can fairly safely speak for those whose job is to spend more time closer to the line of fire when I say- thank you.

[meus-ovatio.livejournal.com]

Personally, I don't care that much.

[box-in-the-box.livejournal.com]

And this whole deal really reminds me of the Micah Wright (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micah_Wright#Controversy) mess.

[prader.livejournal.com]

If you are going to lie about your military service, the only acceptable way to do so is to understate your contribution.

[il-mio-gufo.livejournal.com]

Agreed, at least this way it is more believable. Hec, all the greatest Vets I ever met would never in a million years talk so freely about what they did/saw while in combat. Nope, they don't talk it out, they drink it away or say nothing at all.

[prader.livejournal.com]

They'll talk about it maybe with each other, over Whiskey, but you're right I think- that's about it.

[foxglovehp.livejournal.com]

Generally, those who have actually been there, say the least. You can tell the bullshit artists by how much they have to say about what they did.

[prader.livejournal.com]

With one notable exception that comes immediately to mind- a guy from one of the ANG SFG's (20th, IIRC)- that's a pretty reliable guideline.

You say you're in SEAL? What Team? You must know Chief ____...

[sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com]

Living in San Diego I have the above conversation at least once a month. (Note that I am not a Navy SEAL, but having been stationed on NAB Coronado I know a lot of guys who are)

But to answer your question, I'm not sure how I feel about this.

On one hand it pisses me off for the same resons already raised by box_in_the_box. On the other, I have trouble justifying making it illegal as I'm not big on the idea of victimless crimes.

Personally I think the best solution is to out these people as the frauds that they are and let "social pressure" handle the rest.

Then again some would say that this faith in my fellow citizens is misplaced.

Re: You say you're in SEAL? What Team? You must know Chief ____...

[prader.livejournal.com]

I think this problem might take care of itself by letting real SEALs know who is passing themselves off as one of them and then... looking the other way.

Re: You say you're in SEAL? What Team? You must know Chief ____...

[kinvore.livejournal.com]

SEALs are a bunch of pussies tbh. ;)

Re: You say you're in SEAL? What Team? You must know Chief ____...

[prader.livejournal.com]

"We're not that good, everyone else just sucks."

Re: You say you're in SEAL? What Team? You must know Chief ____...

[sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com]

That's what I mean by "social pressure".

I know a few guys on the SEAL training cadre and I drop 'em a line when I feel the claims are egregious enough.

The results are often entertaining.

Re: You say you're in SEAL? What Team? You must know Chief ____...

[prader.livejournal.com]

I can imagine.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

To me it's an unfortunate consequence of the USA liking war heroes as political figures. Fraud is too easy in such cases, leaving aside that some of the real war heroes would not make their achievements on the battlefield the heart and soul of their campaigns and would say things like "the real heroes were the ones who died."

Given the US love affair with soldiers in politics it can be a kind of fraud people might figure they'd never get caught in. After all, who would dare question a war hero who's seen people die and saved people's lives? It's a despicable deed regardless of whatever explanations there are for it. It's also something that makes me angry because my family has a lot of veterans in it who really *did* serve and people making this kind of false claim appropriate something real for nothing more than a great big scam.

[ninboydean.livejournal.com]

This is what I was thinking. What a shame that real issues of human dignity are manipulated to this degree for political-economic gains.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

Exactly. On a more abstract level I consider it shameful that the ones who get the most admiration are the ones that talk about enjoying combat, not the ones that actually tried to save lives instead of taking them.

[mrsilence.livejournal.com]

Yeah it's a real catch-22 for me.

I have a real issue with the use of military experience as golden laurel for political office, but on the other hand, I also think military experience have a real value to sociopolitical discussion, which allowing phonies to speak as such not only disrepects the people who rightly deserve such respects, but also dilutes the conversation with inane rubbish from people who don't know what they're talking about.

[harry-beast.livejournal.com]

Public flogging might be appropriate, but keel hauling seems a bit extreme. A more fitting punishment might be to sentence the guy to a term of military service in a penal battalion for a few years of hard fighting.

[mrsilence.livejournal.com]

I think possibly the most just and powerful punishment would be to make the false claimants present themselves in front of the national memorial, to stand up and declare that their claims are fraudulent and shameful on prime time national television and then apologize to the nations war dead for their deception.

I imagine that after a few of those, that a dumb shmuck who wants to puff himself up by pretending to be a war hero might think twice about how much glory there might be waiting for him.

[foxglovehp.livejournal.com]

In the absence of any other associated crime, the public humiliation thing might actually work! Of course someone will consider that "cruel and unusual" I am sure...

[thies.livejournal.com]

only if a person actively tries to obtain benefits through it. otherwise I don't give a rat's anus.

[il-mio-gufo.livejournal.com]

Aaaa, the VA runs such a tight ship he would've never gotten that far.

[il-mio-gufo.livejournal.com]

Hmmmmm....did he lose a buddy in Iraq or Afghanistan? a lil' psyco-analysis could never hurt. maybe he feels remorse for not having enlisted alongside his lost buddy ???? just saying weird things happen in mourning a friend/loved one.

[devil-ad-vocate.livejournal.com]

Weird stuff. I don't why anybody would do this. What does he gain?

Corporal punisment backfires

[sophia-sadek.livejournal.com]

I doubt that a flogging would help matters any. It might give the guy a martyr complex on top of his fraudulent conduct.

I find it fascinating that the video promotes the fear that people will suspect all vets as a consequence of these kinds of cases. It seems they should fear other aspects of reputational degradation such as being associated with theft, murder, and destruction. Those are more serious than being a suspected phony.