(no subject)

[kinvore.livejournal.com]

We interrupt the liberal hand-wringing weepfest to bring you this:

http://nerdyapplebottom.com/2010/11/02/my-son-is-gay/

Her son wanted to dress like Daphne from Scooby Doo for Halloween. Not only did she let him, but she stood up to snooty parents who tried to give her shit over it. I love this article, bravo to this mother for standing up for her son.

Do you think she's harming him by letting him dress this way? I think while she risked setting her son up for ridicule that the only way to stop it is to meet it head on. We shouldn't allow ridicule as "normal" behavior. Boys may be boys, but that doesn't mean we should allow them to act like intolerant douchebags.

Some people (usually of the conservative persuasion) claim that homosexuality is a choice. However I remember some rather feminine boys while growing up. Assuming they got a case of the gays, I find it hard to believe they made that choice from such a young age.

EDIT: Let me emphasize I'm not saying this boy is gay or straight, I think it's irrelevant. I just think it ties into how kids (and adults) treat gays which is why I even brought it up to begin with.

Comments

[sealwhiskers.livejournal.com]

That little guy may be as hetero as they get when he grows up. I know several guys who secretly liked fashion, barbies, interior decoration, art, flowers and whathaveyou when they were kids. They learned how to suppress and hide it fast though.

[kinvore.livejournal.com]

Yep, entirely possible.

[anfalicious.livejournal.com]

That's part of it there; we have this idea that there are some cultural things that are homosexual, when they have little to do with sexuality.

[ygrii-blop.livejournal.com]

Teenage girlies love effeminate boys. If he's straight and if he's effeminate, he'll get his legs screwed off in high school.

[sealwhiskers.livejournal.com]

Those were the kind of guys I went for, so I agree. Hey if they wrote decent poetry, or listened to mine, that was sex right there. ;P

[jerseycajun.livejournal.com]

Agreed. I can't think of any other reason for the popularity of the "Twilight" series.

[verytwistedmind.livejournal.com]

he'll get his legs screwed off in high school

HAHAHA That just doesn't sound appealing...

[pastorlenny.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it might be good for us to differentiate betwee same-sex attraction and cross-dressing.

[kinvore.livejournal.com]

Yeah nowhere do I state the boy from the article is gay, and even the mother who wrote it says in the first sentence that he may not be. I just think it ties in to how we treat (potentially) gay kids.

I did go off on a bit of a tangent so maybe I should clarify a bit in the OP. Tomorrow though, I'm getting tired.

[the-rukh.livejournal.com]

see: Eddie Izzard.

[op-tech-glitch.livejournal.com]

We interrupt the liberal hand-wringing weepfest



(Srsly though, is that you sneaking back in here Steve-O??)

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

Somehow I always knew Steve was kinvore's sock.

[kinvore.livejournal.com]

Oh shit I'm found out. You libtards are too smart for me.

The whole choice thing...

[chron-job.livejournal.com]

The purpose behind the "Homosexuality is a choice!" trope:

Behavior is a choice, but desire is innate.

If you define homosexuality as behavior, then the quoted assertion is consistent. If you define it as a predisposition based on desire, it is inconsistent.

So the question becomes, why prefer one definition over the other? Like so many things, championing the definition itself is a political act; it frames the debate.

In general, the public in most liberal democracies understands the need for laws that curb behavior, but is adverse to any law that criminalizes a person by their very nature. Then it becomes a civil rights issue (For example, treating a black person as a legally different entity because they are black has become repugnant.) Framing homosexuality as behavior is a political necessity for those who want to maintain public support for opposing the 'homosexual agenda' (i.e. normalizing homosexual relationships) while minimizing pubic perception of the position as simple bigotry.

But such framing is doomed. Though internally consistent, it becomes inconsistent when compared to language in the wider culture. We do not define "heterosexual" in terms of behavior. No one would bat an eye at a person who self identifies as heterosexual, yet is a virgin. If a person who has never had sex can judge themselves "straight" without any contention, then another who has never had sex should be able to judge themselves "gay" without similar contention... I knew I was straight long before I ever 'behaved' straight. Attention to this isomorphism reveals that homosexuality it as NOT a behavior, but is an identity based on innate desire and predisposition.

The dawning realization of this basic application of empathy is why demographically, we're moving toward gay tolerance, and political / religious leaders who oppose the "homosexual agenda" compromise every position, philosophy, and political ideal they attempt to connect that opposition to.

Re: The whole choice thing...

[meus-ovatio.livejournal.com]

Well, there are ways to act homosexual or heterosexual without engaging in actual intercourse. I acted straight a long time before having sex, in the behavior of viewing beautiful women, masturbating to beautiful women, etc.

[aannnndy.livejournal.com]

A boy dressing like a girl has *nothing* to do with being gay. One can be a burly football player and be gay and one can be an effeminate guy and be as straight as an arrow.

[kinvore.livejournal.com]

Yep and I wasn't saying otherwise. I just brought in our treatment of gays into the mix because it's related to this topic IMO.

[anfalicious.livejournal.com]

Most Transvestites are straight. I wonder, if dressing like a girl makes you gay, then what does dressing like a zombie or sexy nurse make you?

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

Makes you someone who either came late to the Halloween party, or a pr0n maniac.

[airiefairie.livejournal.com]

Homosexuality is the choice made by either the testosterone or the estrogen to dominate over the other.

[penguin42.livejournal.com]

That.... seems oversimplified

[light-over-me.livejournal.com]

Well I remember I dressed as a male character once for Halloween when I was a kid... although, I think girls can get away with that sort of thing more than boys. In fact, people may even think it's cute when girls do it.

Anyway, I think it's a little premature to call a child that young "gay" just because he may like some girly things. It doesn't necessarily mean anything one way or the other. Especially if that child has a sister or plays with other children that are girls. I mean, just because a girl is a tomboy as a child doesn't mean she's necessarily lesbian either, ya know. Also, aren't we kind of stereotyping gay people by implying they all must like to wear womens clothing... one doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the other.

At any rate, the mom should be vigilant in case of any teasing from his peers, though. I recall a local story not too long ago about a boy who wanted to be on the cheerleading squad at his school, and the poor kid got beat up for it. Kids can be really mean, and so can some parents.

[dreadfulpenny81.livejournal.com]

Do you think she's harming him by letting him dress this way?

Non-serious answer: YES! Damn it, everyone knows Velma is much cooler!

Serious answer: Absolutely not. Just as it's a mother's job to protect their child, it's also a mother's job to teach their child tolerance. Clearly, mothers A, B, and C in the story never learned that lesson and they're stuck in some 1950s bubble.
If I were the mother of this little boy, I would have told them if they didn't like his costume, they should shut up, go back to their kitchens, and bake an upside down cake to match their upside down view of the world!

[kinvore.livejournal.com]

oh snap!

[verytwistedmind.livejournal.com]

Aww how cute. That will make great blackmail when he starts dating. Men or women... lol.

[kinvore.livejournal.com]

haha very true

Two Points

[eracerhead.livejournal.com]

1) It's not OK for boys to dress femininely, because they are emulating a lower status. It's OK for girls to dress masculinely because they are emulating a higher status. Get with the program already.(*)

2) Whether homosexuality is a choice or not is a red herring. The question is whether homosexual behavior has such a high negative impact on society that it needs restriction. (**)


(*)No, I don't feel this way, but this IMO is one of the societal implications.
(**)I don't feel this way either.

Re: Two Points

[kinvore.livejournal.com]

On your second point, in a way it does matter whether or not it's a choice. Not in an absolute sense, but as long as people believe it's a choice it makes it harder to fight for them to have equal rights. There's always ignorant fuckknuckles out there who say "they can have equality, they just need to stop being gay first".

Yes, there are also people among that group that will insist it's a choice no matter what but I think some can be convinced.

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

I think she's stupid for ranting about it as well as stupid for not thinking that people would laugh at him for cross-dressing. She let him dress funny and people made fun of him for it. That's what happens. If he got upset about it, she can console him and that's all good, but her public rant is stupid.

Note that being feminine =/= being gay. And making fun of the kid for being in drag is not homophobia.

Societal norms are fundamental to having a society. If you have a society, it will have norms, and they will be enforced by the people in society the same way they are now and have always been. So the issue is reduced to what norms our society has or should have. Debating that is fine. Whining about other people enforcing the social norms is stupid.

[kawaiimamimi.livejournal.com]

She let him dress funny and people made fun of him for it. That's what happens.

But why? Why is that considered normal or okay?

We have to think about what it means to mock someone for not being normal. What is the purpose or outcome? To make ourselves feel better? Does someone's dopamine fire off when you are mocking others? Does it make you feel good? Why? Does this mocking of people actually help society in any way, shape, or form at all, other than to give the mocker some quick mental self righteous gratification?

It doesn't make sense to me.

[kawaiimamimi.livejournal.com]

This is so stupid.

Societal norms. Pft, please. Societal norms reinforce mediocrity and repress the exceptional. It's a tall poppy syndrome. What purpose does reinforcing a societal norm have to someone other than to make themselves feel good about doing so?

Also, people seriously need to stop equating clothing with sexuality. Clothing is merely something you wear. Some of the hottest garments I've ever seen on a man were skirts, and it's because those men had some fucking hot legs.

Fascinating

[sophia-sadek.livejournal.com]

I recently read a research article on boys who which they were girls and girls who wish they were boys. It seems that the medical establishment characterizes such wishes as a "disorder." My lack of faith in modern medicine with it comes to mental health has only been confirmed. Of course, this cute little cross-dressing story is not quite the same thing, but some folks may disagree.