Weekly Topic

[abomvubuso.livejournal.com]

A new fortnight, a new bi-weekly [Poll #1639356]
(Feel free to suggest more).

 

Comments

[torpidai.livejournal.com]

- The fundamental purpose of government: public services, defense, public order, economy, health, education, social security, etc.

You mean that there is a purpose? Hell here, one parties always returned to power to fix the excessive spending of the last, problem is they always have this opinion that the poor should foot the bill for the last lot (I'd guess because the poor tend to vote the spendthrifts in)

I can't be the only one of the opinion all departments of government could be forced not to spend all cash allocated, then expect more? Hell they spent years trying to tell the impoverished to "Live within their means" surely governments should be compelled to take the same advice?

[abomvubuso.livejournal.com]

I see you're eager to write a post about this. Its at the tip of your fingers, dont deny it, surrender to the temptation! Would be interesting ;)

[torpidai.livejournal.com]

One day, maybe a day when I'm slightly less intoxicated ;)

[qnetter]

Hell here, one parties always returned to power to fix the excessive spending of the last, problem is they always have this opinion that the poor should foot the bill for the last lot (I'd guess because the poor tend to vote the spendthrifts in)

The last few cycles, the spendthrifts are not the party you imply.

[torpidai.livejournal.com]

The last few cycles, the spendthrifts are not the party you imply.

You may well be right, but then again, this lot did sell off most of our countries "Assets" after installing poor managers to "Manage", Hell one was even taken from a project he failed with, one might think they were the desired qualities?

On the proper role of government

[russj.livejournal.com]

(The subtopics are so broad that some of them deserve their own thread.)

The proper role of government--all government, including world, federal, state, or local--is to protect the natural human rights of every individual.

Since governments are instituted by the people, and derive all of their power from the people--they can never assume or exercise any power that could not reasonably and morally be exercised by any individual living without government.

[abomvubuso.livejournal.com]

The point is there are many possible forms of government, and as many opinions about the size, role and impact of government as the number of people there are.

And yes, each of these subtopics is broad enough for their own thread.

Re: On the proper role of government

[torpidai.livejournal.com]

The proper role of government--all government, including world, federal, state, or local--is to protect the natural human rights of every individual.


Here we go again.... When will people understand that "Rights" are a man-made concept, easily understood by even the dimmest subject, always promised, yet not possible with the current instability of world affairs? Rights are inalienable, presently there's always someone who wishes to take power and change things about, ye know, I remember something that resembles freedom of speech, and freedom to travel, free from aggrevation, but no such thing as a "Right", human or not! There's always some bugger willing to remove the priveliges you seem to consider "Rights".

Since governments are instituted by the people, and derive all of their power from the people--they can never assume or exercise any power that could not reasonably and morally be exercised by any individual living without government.

You hasve more faith in the electoral system of our "western democracy" than I obviously, I don't believe that it's any more(or less) immune from corruption than an ITV premium rate telephone poll!

Re: On the proper role of government

[luvdovz.livejournal.com]

When will people understand that "Rights" are a man-made concept

Name one element of society which is not a man-made concept.

Re: On the proper role of government

[torpidai.livejournal.com]

Enjoyment of natures "gifts" but they too are privedges offerred us by the benevolent Elite allowing us on to some land left to nature to manage ;) cerainly not man made (Though some deluded sections of society would have you believe they were made by their omnipotent one ;)

Re: On the proper role of government

[russj.livejournal.com]

'You have more faith in the electoral system of our "western democracy" than I obviously..."

I should have phrased this differently:
Since governments are instituted by the people, and derive all of their power from the people--they can never LEGITIMATELY assume or exercise any power that could not reasonably and morally be exercised by any individual living without government.

Re: On the proper role of government

[torpidai.livejournal.com]

Since governments are instituted by the people, and derive all of their power from the people--they can never LEGITIMATELY assume or exercise any power that could not reasonably and morally be exercised by any individual living without government.

I think they can and they do, though it's legitimacy must be questioned! Poor people are taxed at a greater %age of expendible income than the rich, Fixed penalty fines are more of a burden to the poor than the rich, hell i've seen people in prison for carrying what was effectively a weeks supply of cannibis to me! Governments lie to get into power, then lie to remain there, and lie to implement laws that in all reality the people neither want nor need! Unfortunately the people (here especially) are so damned dozy they just keep on going to work, work harder and harder throughout their life often earning less than when they started work 45 odd years previously, yet being Taxed more, fined more, and because most of them have built up some sort of "Home Comfort", have more to lose so complain less.

Fundamental, proper and necessary roles

[brockulfsen.livejournal.com]

The fundamental role of government is to ensure that there is enough grain in the public storehouses to feed everyone should next years crop fail.

The proper role of government is to ensure that an individual actually does stop swining his arm before in contacts your nose.

The necessary role is more complex. Government has to be the biggest baddest gang on the block so that it can intimidate the other gangs into not killing and eating the peasants (who grow the grain mentioned above).

Re: Fundamental, proper and necessary roles

[torpidai.livejournal.com]

The fundamental role of government is to ensure that there is enough grain in the public storehouses to feed everyone should next years crop fail.

So government is an insurance company now?

Re: Fundamental, proper and necessary roles

[brockulfsen.livejournal.com]

That was always why we had government.

The transition from a Big Man society to having something recognizable as government came with populations large enough that in a bad season they couldn't survive on what they could gather and hunt in the wild within a day or two of their village.

Insurance is quite a modern concept, you place your bet with a group of investors, gambling that should you need to call on the policy (bet) that they will both have the money and be willing to give it to you. Due to the disparity of power, quite often they come up with a valid excuse not to pay you, even if they have the money.

Re: Fundamental, proper and necessary roles

[torpidai.livejournal.com]

Insurance is quite a modern concept, you place your bet with a group of investors, gambling that should you need to call on the policy (bet) that they will both have the money and be willing to give it to you. Due to the disparity of power, quite often they come up with a valid excuse not to pay you, even if they have the money.

Sounds pretty much like Europe, the food mountain and the millions of Hungry people all over Europe to me ;) Last time I saw with my own eyes a "Withdrawal" from that scheme, many who could afford to get drunk lots got a number of items (through both legitimate and illigitimate means) whilst the elderly who couldn't afford to heat their homes or eat, didn't see a single item :s

The role of governmen: cliff notes

[sealwhiskers.livejournal.com]

Much much more and way more complex than anything a libertarian or conservative would tell you.

Re: The role of governmen: cliff notes

[torpidai.livejournal.com]

Much much more and way more complex than anything a libertarian or conservative would tell you.

You mean "Way too complex for those who pay for it to ever comprehend! Move along, nothing to see here, just keep paying your taxes, We'll sort it all out for you children"?

Re: The role of governmen: cliff notes

[sealwhiskers.livejournal.com]

nope. Government is neither hard to look into nor to understand. But the task of attaching the dots is one of the most neglected.
Btw, I pay, and I don't mind paying more even. But then of course, I know how to do my research.

Re: The role of governmen: cliff notes

[torpidai.livejournal.com]

Btw, I pay, and I don't mind paying more even. But then of course, I know how to do my research.

Then your share of the Tax burden as a percentage of your wage is too low ;)

If you know how to do your research, please feel free to enlighten us, £15 to initiate a FOI request as per usual does not allow those most affected to do any search in a sensible manner. but then again, I'll assume from your mention of "Cliff notes" you live in that wonderful 'land of the Free', America right?

Re: The role of governmen: cliff notes

[sealwhiskers.livejournal.com]

Well, I do live in the US since the last 5 years, and actually the land of the free is harder to look into than some other democracies..but far from impossible. As a newcomer here, I could still make heads and tails out of government programs, taxes, the general fund and other open records after a while. I come from Sweden, which is easy in comparison, since transparency and bureaucracy are important there.

Usually, fees when it comes to FOI are initiated by the right wing, because bureaucracy and gov. tax funds are cut. The same happened in the US state department I worked for in the state I live in. It happened before my time, in the 90's, but was a big deal then, since people had been used to getting these services for free, and quicker (they cut personnel too, and cutting money and personnel is the quickest way to hinder gov. transparency, but most often carried out by the very forces who carry transparency as a banner).

British archival & public records law is not bad in its origin, but my guess is that the state is affected by low funds, and usually the first thing that goes when conservatives make cuts, is transparency. (in the form of work hours, man power, bureaucracy, audits, proper record management and public web presence.)

Sorry about the length, haha. I'm actually doing research about this very thing this year.

Re: The role of governmen: cliff notes

[torpidai.livejournal.com]

Odd you should mention the web presence, for some reason this country felt the need for each council to pay for it's own design, build and hosting, did an abysmal job and many councils costed that at over £10 per hit, hell that's almost an hours work to the lazy overpaid deskjockeys at our council office, though you have much more chance of getting the correct information if you looked it up yourself.

Transparency? rly? the last lot (Who did appear to have lots of cash to waste, till near on the end of their days spending it on sandblasting private homes and rebuilding the yard walls) seem to have made public council meetings a private affair, often having to pre-book a seat, if you wish to ask a question then it must be written, handed in 3 days in advance, and pre-aproved before you're allowed to raise it. (What happens if something "Comes up" at that meeting? Too late, if it's in the counsellors interest, that motion will be passed, Joe Public has no say!

What's your research for? college? or other?

Re: The role of governmen: cliff notes

[sealwhiskers.livejournal.com]

Research: International grad degree (so, yeah, college, but also for an article in a periodical from my field)

The meetings are public records, whether they are in papers or, as in some US states, taped. In the UK the law is to make transcripts available from council meetings and the like. There are actually equally strict laws on citizen's partaking in meetings however. In many US states, civilians aren't allowed in legislative meetings, this comes down to their elective representatives. What you are allowed to do is to vote, and to get the transcripts after meetings.
There are many decent sites you can go to, which I'm sure you may already know. This (http://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/) I guess is one of them. Viewing it all certainly takes time, and I guess checking on the frequency of government internal audits would also be a good way to check credibility.

Re: The role of governmen: cliff notes

[torpidai.livejournal.com]

yeah, I'm aware that government has various sites for National government transparency, and national government now having many of their meetings televised I guess are under closer scrutiny, however local government meetings (Council meets) are the ones I was talking about, Transcriptions there are limited by the ability of the secretary of the days competance in the field of note-taking, and whatever the chair decides can go in said notes.

I have on a number of occasions, sent e-mail to Mp's using the site theyworkforyou.com and never once recieved a reply, no matter how civil I am when writing to them. Once voted in these people are a law unto themselves, the voting public won't have a chance, hell most of them can't get their own declarations of interests completed correctly, what chance of them getting anything else right when they are in such positions?

Re: The role of governmen: cliff notes

[sealwhiskers.livejournal.com]

Local gov. can be tricky, because if they're rarely checked by a central organ they slack on their own laws. The thing you can do is to lean on them, I've done this plenty, but I agree it's a bother. Basically, go to the places where you're supposed to be able to see transcripts, talk to people, ask, interview even. Write to central agencies that you think stuff is not right, but do it with as much back up (even in the form of name lists, if you're really disgruntled). The thing to check out is: 1. can you as a citizen get to the information with reasonable ease? Is the information accurate? Do you get replies if you ask questions? etc etc
If not, start making a hassle and report them. I would also use the media, by raising particular agency names and names of employees, you will get their attention.
This type of thing happens when government gets de-centralized to a fault, and it can be a pain in the arse.
The thing to remember is to really know the laws and statutes, to customer-test them in particular places and to review it clearly, with names and places in as many public ways as possible, with as much evidence as possible. I've seen local agencies clean up their act withing hours after realizing that there was noise which might attract the eye of their central mother agency.

[abomvubuso.livejournal.com]

Good idea.