Marriage by Any Other Name

[torasama.livejournal.com]

While a rose may be a rose by any other name, the same does not hold true of marriage. Marriage is marriage. Civil unions are not equal to marriage, both in society's eyes and the law's - couples joined under a civil union do not have the same rights as a married couple. Denoting long-term, committed same-sex relations as 'lesser' opens a legal Pandora's box and provides a venue for continued discrimination, by applying a different set of rights to opposite-sex and same-sex couples.

To deny a civil marriage to a same-sex couple is blatant discrimination per the 14th Amendment. Just as the anti-interracial marriage arguement that all races had the "same right" to marry others of their own race didn't work in Loving vs. Virginia, the arguement that homosexuals have the "same right" to marry people of the opposite sex doesn't work, either.

Comments

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

Proposition 8 never would have passed by the margin it did without the surge in traditionally socially conservative but Democratic-leaning societies.

It wasn't all blacks, but the minority Mormons didn't have much to do with it either. Mormons are all of 2% of the California population, and Proposition 8 passed by a much larger margin than that. Sophia_Sadek will have a shitstroke when she reads that, given her Mormonophobia and her Romanophobia.

[torasama.livejournal.com]

I don't think you've done your research on this one.

Who voted for Prop 8?
The Public Policy Institute of California released a poll in December 2008 to shed some light on who voted for Prop 8, especially in light of widespread claims that relatively heavy support among black voters is what pushed Prop 8 to victory. 2,003 voters were polled from November 5–16.[116],[117]

On a stand-alone question, 47% were in favor of same-sex marriage, 48% were opposed and 5% were unsure.
85% of voters identifying themselves as vangelical or born-again Christians voted "yes".
Of non-evangelical Christians polled, 42% voted yes.
77% of Republicans in the poll voted yes.
65% of Democrats voted no.
85% of John McCain supporters voted yes.
30% of Barack Obama voters voted yes.
61% of Latinos voted yes.
57% of Latinos, Asians, and blacks combined voted yes.
62% of those without a college degree voted yes.
74% of those who voted yes on Prop 8 considered the outcome of the vote to be "very important", while 59% of those who voted no attached the same level of importance to the outcome.[118]

-ballotpedia (http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php?title=California_Proposition_8_(2008)#Who_voted_for_Prop_8.3F)

None of which is very surprising.


As for the Mormons, it was the money coming in from Utah that was the big factor. See this (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/29/opinion/29sat2.html).

(I've been meaning to give you some icon love for that one, btw. She's always been my favorite character :P)

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

Well....on the different categories:

1) Black churches are pretty socially liberal....and theologically conservative. It's an odd phenomenon that African and African-majority churches are more liberal than European-majority churches. Contrast the American Episcopal Church with Akinola's brand of Episcopalianism.

2) A bit less than I expected, Democrats can be socially conservative, too.

3) Surprising, considering what orientation his chief of staff was...

4) Interesting...

5) Latinos are very much socially conservative and preserve a racist caste system of peninsulares-mestizos-Indians virtually intact from the 19th Century....but are very much socially liberalizing on this issue, so I'm a bit uncertain on that.

6) Asian Christians are scary about as much as the Falwell brand of White Christianity.

7) Sadly not surprising at all.

8) Again, not surprising.

And I'm uneasy when a minority with a long history of persecution (which is why they went from New York state to Utah in the first place) is singled out over the likes of say....Rick Warren.

And she's also one of mine. ;P

[torasama.livejournal.com]

Well, the point of all that was that blacks didn't force the proposition through, and that the Mormon church did considerably more than their legal share to help it.

I'm aware of the Joseph Smith migration story. Yeah, it's not fair to judge the entire religion based on one person of that faith.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

True....but so did Rick Warren. I see no condemnations of Mr. Extremist-masquerading-as-Mainstream, now do you? It seems religious fuckwittery is only worthy of condemnation when minority religions do it, and I dislike that intensely, coming as I do from a Baptist background.

And yes, that is not fair. That kind of bad judgment is all too common, unfortunately.

[torasama.livejournal.com]

I see no condemnations of Mr. Extremist-masquerading-as-Mainstream, now do you?

What? Where've you been? That was a large part of why the LBGT community got so indignant that Rick Warren would deliver Obama's inaguration speech.

It seems religious fuckwittery is only worthy of condemnation when minority religions do it

Even with all the atheist vs. christian wank on the Internet? Larger religions get their share, too.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

I was part of it, and made quite a stink on several forums and offline as well that a hatemonger who considers gays equal to animal buggerers should have no place at it. I meant outside the GLTBQ community, in the larger Left Wing. They said not one damned word.

Personally, I think the atheist v. Christian wank is a bit tiring, and I find that Richard Dawkins is a much more stirring read than most Christian authors...and I'm a proud Baptist. But unfortunately, many atheists have developed an intolerance equal to Christians, and many Christians aren't willing to accept atheism as valid.

[torasama.livejournal.com]

(How do we inevitably get into religious discussions? :P)

Outside the LBGT(QAIAP) community, no one much cares, which is sad. But then, the US is a largely Christian society, and with his book (http://www.bestwebbuys.com/The_Purpose_Driven_Life-ISBN_9780310276999.html?isrc=b-search) and idiotic touting of "Christophobia (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/12/24/rick-warren-accuses-gays_n_153390.html)" and hate speech (by his own critics), I can see why that's so.

Same here. Atheist and Christians often do themselved what they accuse the other of (discrimination, intolerance, hate, what have you). It's gotten almost to the point of gang warfare in their verbal attacks on each other, which is counter-productive and idiotic at best.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

We inevitably get into this because the Conservative movement in the US is a real true Political Religion.

And yes, I think that the atheist-Christian gang warfare has gotten to the point that if I were a drinking man I'd have a drinking game to go along with the arguments. I see them as pointless, even if I am a Baptist, the only sure confirmation will be once we're all dead. While on Earth...why fight this endless battle with no victor?

[torasama.livejournal.com]

Obama's inaguration speechprayer

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

I knew what you meant, it was no biggie.

[torasama.livejournal.com]

Yeah, but if I didn't correct it myself someone was bound to come and snark :P