Missouri Proposition B - the Puppy Mill Cruelty Prevention Act

[foolsguinea.livejournal.com]

I was kind of meh on Missouri Proposition B, http://www.sos.mo.gov/elections/2010petitions/2010-085.asp --what little I knew of it I didn't disagree with, but I wasn't that sure about it. Tonight I went to a presentation on it.

Presently in Missouri, puppy mills are overseen by the Department of Agriculture, & local law enforcement can't seize animals. Proposition B would allow law enforcement--sheriffs & city police--to step in & remove animals. It also mandates at least yearly veterinary visits & mandates exercise areas, whereas present law does not require these things. But it's the fact that violations would become misdemeanors, & that puppy mill operators could no longer automatically keep out police or the ASPCA, that really persuades me.

Understand that right now there is no limit on number of breeding bitches kept, no requirement for veterinary care, & no authority granted to local law enforcement to stop reported abuses. Prop B changes all that.

http://YesonPropB.com
573-263-9226

Comments

[eracerhead.livejournal.com]

I'm a sick fuck because I don't believe cuteness is a rationale for singling out one non-human species over another?

[mijopo.livejournal.com]

Let's suppose, just for the sake of argument, (a) that the cuteness of dogs is what motivates this law and (b) that there are also other species being maltreated. Why would either of those facts be good reasons to oppose this law?

[eracerhead.livejournal.com]

Because it singles out one species for special protection while there are other things certain people would consider more heinous done to animals every day that are perfectly legal, such as twisting off calf testicles with a portable drill.

The law just makes people feel good that they are doing something, when really it is just phony bullshit.

[mijopo.livejournal.com]

Why is it just phony bullshit? Wouldn't it at least have the effect of eliminating some of the horrible conditions in puppy mills? How is that phony bullshit?

Or is it your position that because this bill doesn't eliminate all animal cruelty we shouldn't pass it even if it eliminates some?

If someone were to propose a bill outlawing twisting off calf testicles with a portable drill, you'd advise legislators to oppose it because it failed to also eliminate other cruelty to, say, dogs in puppy mills?

[a-new-machine.livejournal.com]

Under-inclusiveness is not a good argument here. YOu still think that dogs deserve the better treatment, you just ALSO think chickens and cows and the like should receive it? In what way does passing this law harm the chances of better oversight of chickens and cows or whatever?

[eracerhead.livejournal.com]

So you are claiming that cuteness has nothing to do with why this law is being passed.

[a-new-machine.livejournal.com]

I'm claiming that if the reduction of animal cruelty is a good thing (which you seem to admit) then this law is not problematic. It does not harm other anti-cruelty movements, nor does it impose new cruelty on another species.

[eracerhead.livejournal.com]

It won't open the door for others. This is just because we anthropomorphize dogs.

[mylaptopisevil.livejournal.com]

Isn't that the bill the Tea Party/Joe the Plumber are rallying against, because it's government control of business?

[mijopo.livejournal.com]

Apparently, yes: http://current.com/tags/89942081_missouris-proposition-b/

[squidb0i.livejournal.com]

Isn't this the bill the Teahadis are completely against?

[apodictic.livejournal.com]

I heard that PETA is behind this bill. I can't help but be suspicious of that aspect of the whole thing. I need to research it a bit more before Tuesday. I was all for it, until I heard the PETA angle, now I am questioning it.

[mijopo.livejournal.com]

Great, you're displaying the same kind of reasoning skills as these people:

http://www.examiner.net/opinion/letters/x1471838989/Proposition-B-goes-too-far-on-animal-cruelty

Let's suppose PETA were behind it, why would that make you question the legislation? Would it suddenly become more difficult to read or understand the proposed legislation?

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

Because there's likely to be a catch somewhere that isn't obvious that will work in PETA's benefit and everyone else's deficit.

[mijopo.livejournal.com]

Do you have examples of PETA lobbying to pass non-obvious catch containing legislation in the past? Seems like it would be hard to do in a relatively short piece of legislation like this.

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

Not off the top of my head. I can't recall if they were behind previous ones or not. But that's just the gut reaction to hearing that PETA is behind something.

[mijopo.livejournal.com]

I see.

[mrsilence.livejournal.com]

Teabaggers: this is just one more example of where the government should stop minding its OWN business.

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

And then people complain that Steve-o opens his tirades with "You, leftards".
It goes both ways, doesn't it?

[mrsilence.livejournal.com]

Absolutely.

Although have to I confess I haven't commented on anything political lately, so I forgot that Teabaggers is actually a derogatory term, not the term they use for themselves, until after I'd already posted

And I don't think what I was trying to say came across quite right. I was sarcastically saying that that is the attitude that Tea Party supporters have; that the government needs to stay out of things that are the government's business.

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

I know. I'm just saying. Cos there seemed to be a huge drama episode related to that term.

[mijopo.livejournal.com]

It's actually sort of an interesting etymology case, though. Initially, I think people used the term with the intent of alluding to the sexual practice and those who practice it. But I think that since it's now used far more often to refer to members of the political movement than to practitioners to the obscure sexual practice, it has largely lost its offensiveness, I believe. I know that when I read your response I had to think twice about why it was even offensive. I think that even Obama has used the term, presumably because he didn't think it was excessively offensive.

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

I don't know. I'm not even American. All I know is, more than one person has expressed disapproval with being called with this term. That's all.

[dwer.livejournal.com]

it's an indication of a lack of connection with larger society. It's like how the National Organization for Marriage didn't realize that their acronym would be NOM.

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

Yeah, let alone NAMBLA.

[stewstewstewdio.livejournal.com]

Free health care for puppies? Isn't that something the right complains is rampant socialism and creating a nanny state? Shouldn't we be sending them to Indonesia to be making Nikes or something?

[eracerhead.livejournal.com]

That's fine for puppies, but why not also prevent rat mills? Rats aren't cute enough?

[mijopo.livejournal.com]

If rats are being kept in appalling conditions then I think we should also legislate against that.

[eracerhead.livejournal.com]

Lab rats, mice and rabbits are specifically bred to be susceptible to cancer and then treated with high doses of toxic chemicals to test for carcinogens. Yet you apparently are more concerned with puppy mills.

So why don't we just take the leftover puppies from these mills and use them as lab rats? Because dogs have been bred to be pleasing to humans and thus easy to anthropomorphize. Rats, not so much.

[mijopo.livejournal.com]

Why are you inferring that I'm more concerned with puppy mills?

[mijopo.livejournal.com]

Just to say a bit more here, though. There's a very big difference between treating animals inhumanely because there's a potentially big payoff for the human species and treating them inhumanely just because you're too lazy or miserly to do the right thing. I won't attempt to argue that sacrificing animals for the sake of medical research is okay but I will contend that it's a very very different animal welfare issue than that being considered in legislation for other sorts of animal cruelty.

[eracerhead.livejournal.com]

Ok, so the end justifies the means.

[mijopo.livejournal.com]

Please read more carefully. I quite deliberately didn't make such a claim. But certainly it's less obviously wrong to inflict pain on an animal with the intent of saving human life than to inflict pain on an animal because you're an asshole or want to save a few bucks or are lazy. Do you disagree?

[foolsguinea.livejournal.com]

I guess I should have mentioned the conditions in these places. It's still legal in Missouri to stack dogs in cages like so many pot plants.

Right now we have a dog glut. We don't need intensive breeding on the level practiced in Missouri. Making it more expensive to breed dogs is arguably better for small/part-time dog breeders, because it cuts overproduction.

[rasilio.livejournal.com]

"Understand that right now there is no limit on number of breeding bitches kept"

Damn, I never knew that Missouri had so much in common with Utah

[verytwistedmind.livejournal.com]

Rasilio I think you are misunderstanding the word bitches in this context...

[mijopo.livejournal.com]

Who are the word bitches?

[rasilio.livejournal.com]

If you spent much time in the Libertarianism community you wouldn't think that.


** There was a time in that community where there were almost weekly discussions of the morality/legality of beastiality to the point where it became a running joke.

Comment and questions

[verytwistedmind.livejournal.com]

I think the more important thing is to never get a puppy who was raised in a puppy mill. First it's a bad purchase. Second, you should never support such atrocities with your money. the office.

My question is a simply one; funding. Can the police in Missouri afford the man power needed to enforce this?

Why did the Department of Agriculture fail to regulate/police this section of their authority? The raising of animals as an financial source should be under their umbrella. There should be an investigation on where they went wrong. Are other livestock (god I hate using that term for puppies!) being treated badly because of their failure to manage their Department?

Re: Comment and questions

[the-rukh.livejournal.com]

I think in a lot of cases on laws like this, it doesn't really change enforcement, but if it gets reported, the law now had the authority to intervene where before it did not.

Exactly.

[foolsguinea.livejournal.com]

That's what the ASPCA tell me.

[the-rukh.livejournal.com]

If this effects the price of puppy meat, I am definitely against it.




What were we talking about?

[verytwistedmind.livejournal.com]

Puppy meat? You need white baby jebus to lay his scolding hot hands on you...

Stewed Dog (wedding style)

[onefatmusicnerd.livejournal.com]

Amount Measure Ingredient -- Preparation Method
-------- ------------ --------------------------------
3 kg dog meat
1 1/2 cups vinegar
60 peppercorns -- crushed
6 tablespoons salt
12 cloves garlic -- crushed
1/2 cup cooking oil
6 cups onion -- sliced
3 cups tomato sauce
10 cups boiling water
6 cups red pepper -- cut into strips
6 pieces bay leaf
1 teaspoon tabasco sauce
1 1/2 cups liver spread
1 whole fresh pineapple -- cut 1/2 inch thick

1. First, kill a medium sized dog, then burn off the fur over a hot fire.
2. Carefully remove the skin while still warm and set aside for later (may be
used in other recpies)
3. Cut meat into 1″ cubes. Marinade meat in mixture of vinegar, peppercorn,
salt and garlic for 2 hours.
4. Fry meat in oil using a large wok over an open fire, then add onions and
chopped pineapple and suate until tender.
5. Pour in tomato sauce and boiling water, add green peper, bay leaf and
tobasco.
6. Cover and simmer over warm coals until meat is tender. Blend in liver spread
and cook for additional 5-7 minutes.

[debergerac.livejournal.com]

there's a korean joke somewhere in there...