[identity profile] paft.livejournal.com posting in [community profile] talkpolitics
Daisy Kahn, American Society for Muslim Advancement, being quoted on Fox News:

We are deeply concerned because this is like a metastasized anti-Semitism. That’s what we feel right now. It’s not even Islamophobia. It’s beyond Islamophobia. It’s hate of Muslims. And we are deeply concerned, yesterday had a council with all religious, Muslim religious leaders from around the country and everybody is deeply concerned about what’s going on around the nation.






Video Here (If embed code fails)

The fruits of irresponsible and bigoted language are ripening in this country. Some have graduated from rhetoric to action. In addition to the stabbing of a Muslim cabbie in New York, there have been a series of crimes committed against mosques and Islamic centers. These include:

The defacing of a Nashville Islamic Center last February with the words “Muslims Go Home.” A threatening note was left on the site that included “Every Moslem nation needs to be eradicated that surrounds the Holy Land.:

The explosion of a pipe bomb at a Florida Islamic Center in Florida in May. At the time, 60 people were in the building, praying. Though the bomb shook the building and blackened a wall, nobody was hurt.

Obscene graffiti spray-painted in the parking lot of an Arlington Texas mosque in June. That same weekend, a fire destroyed playground equipment at the site, and some copper tubing was cut, possibly because the vandal thought it was a natural gas line. (Fortunately it was not.)

The threatening signs set up last week at a Madera California mosque, reading “"Wake up America, the enemy is here,” and “No temple for god of terrorism at Ground Zero.”

And there’s the recent case in Murfreesboro Tennessee, on the site of a future Islamic Center and mosque. Federal agents were called in after someone doused construction equipment with flammable liquid and tossed a match.

It's hardly surprising then, that Muslims like Daisy Kahn are concerned.

How to respond to that concern?

Well, that depends on whether you want to address it or brush it aside. Consider, for a moment, the Fox News panel’s response to the above quote from Daisy Kahn, and Time Magazine’s cover story entitled “Is America Islamophobic?”

The Fox reporter instantly kicks things off by jerking his thumb back at the Muslims.



So much of this, Ellis, I guess revolves around questions that aren’t being answered about this mosque in New York, people want to know where the money’s coming from, who’s paying for it, are there foreign governments involved – is anyone in the media trying to get to the bottom of that?


See, it’s all those Muslims’ fault that their places of worship are being firebombed and vandalized and their personal safety threatened. What else can people do if that “mosque in New York” refuses to tell us where its money is coming from?

Ellis Henican of Newsday deserves credit for at least attempting to bring the conversation back to the actual reality of why Daisy Kahn and others are so concerned about American Islamophobia.


Well, yeah, there’s real reporting on it, and I’ve got to tell you John, I’m a little slow to make these sweeping answers like ‘Yes, America is Islamophobic,’ but I covered that hardhat rally down there, and let me tell you, there were some views expressed that I think everyone at this table would find a little troubling.


Note that Henican makes a point of saying he’s not comfortable with that badly worded Time Magazine headline, something that Judy Miller carefully ignores in her response.


But is that America? That’s not America, that’s some people who turned out to protest…Where is there any indication that America as a country is beating up on Muslims or denying them their rights?


The addition of “as a country” is important here. Miller is too smart to deny that Muslims are being attacked and harassed in this country. But so long as we’re not doing this as a country i.e, so long as these things are not being legally sanctioned (as Kristallnacht was in Germany) then no concern is warranted.

Fox’s token atheist, S.E. Cupp, chimes in. As is usual with Cupp, all this concern aimed at Islamophobia is really just a way for liberals to be mean to conservatives:


For all of their interest in tolerance and freedom of speech and freedom of religion, the liberal thought police are out in full force to tell you that you cannot have certain opinions. that there’s a line you can cross in a debate, that there’s not…you can’t have one belief, or you’re Islamophobic or racist or nativist. I mean, it’s absolutely, it’s intimidating, it’s akin to censorship!


The sheer narcissism of this statement is a bit staggering. Apparently to Cupp, vandalizing, firebombing and physically threatening Muslim centers, mosques, and people is not cause for concern – but upsetting right-wingers by arguing with them is a form of “intimidation.” Especially striking is her indignation over the notion that certain lines can be crossed in a debate. In the mind of Cupp and Fox viewers, conservatives can cross no lines in debate, while liberals do so merely by debating. Implying or even stating outright that all Muslims are terrorists and disloyal is acceptable. Calling someone a bigot for saying so is not and in fact qualifies as a form of censorship.

Once again, Henican tries to inject a little sanity into the discussion by pointing out that bigotry does exist, an uncomfortable brush with reality which prompts Jim Pinkerton of the New American Foundation to ask rather plaintively why everyone’s not talking about the funding for the Cordoba house. Judy Miller says that’s a really good question, an Fox news deserves credit for asking it, while the reporter chimes in again with the damning observation that the developer of the property used to be a waiter.

Following the discussion here provides a beautiful little nutshell of classic rationalizations for dangerous levels of intolerance.

1. It’s the Muslims fault, rather than the fault of the people planting bombs, vandalizing Islamic sites, and threatening Muslims. Let’s talk about what the Muslims are doing!

2. We’re not as bad as Nazi Germany was when it came to the Jews, so people shouldn’t be complaining!

3. Calling certain opinions racist or bigoted hurts the feelings of people expressing those opinions and is an obvious attempt at intimidation and censorship.

4. Why aren’t we talking about what the Muslims are doing?...

As for that Time headline, “Is America Islamophobic,” it’s either stunningly stupid, or a deliberate attempt at hyperbolizing the discussion to ensure a soothing response. No, America is not, as a country, “islamophobic” in that we have not criminalized Islam or instituted laws penalizing Muslims. The proper question is “How much of a problem is Islamaphobia in this country?”

The answer is unlikely to be as reassuring or as simple as many would like it to be.

(partially) crossposted from Thoughtcrimes

(no subject)

Date: 31/8/10 18:07 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
I found highly telling the bit in one of the articles where a decorated Afghan War vet introduced himself as such to a crowd. He asked the guys wanting to build the community center if they'd go along with it. They said yes. He asked the crowd of greybeards if they would. They screamed Boos and NO.

Funny how the civility these people want so badly applies only to them.

(no subject)

Date: 31/8/10 18:08 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] devil-ad-vocate.livejournal.com
Bad economy, joblessness, war, etc. It all screams for scapegoats. Take your pick: Muslims, Jews, Socialists, immigrants... take your pick.

Not like it hasn't happened before.

(no subject)

Date: 31/8/10 18:11 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
Indeed. I seem to remember there was once a young man from Branau-am-Inn who happened to use scapegoating to do very well for himself for a time.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] devil-ad-vocate.livejournal.com - Date: 31/8/10 18:27 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 31/8/10 18:33 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] devil-ad-vocate.livejournal.com - Date: 31/8/10 18:40 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] gunslnger.livejournal.com - Date: 31/8/10 19:28 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 31/8/10 21:00 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 31/8/10 20:59 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 31/8/10 18:30 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rasilio.livejournal.com
Hey Americans are a peace loving people, you cannot hold us responsible for the actions of a few extremists who abuse our founding documents to support acts of hatred and terrorism and it would be absurd to expect us to speak out against them.

In otherwords while I have no tolerance for those who would commit violence against Muslims I'll have more sympathy for those same Muslims when they start policing their own and do something about their extremist problem.

Till then, I'm sorry those extremists attacking Muslims aren't Americans and are no concern of mine.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] geezer-also.livejournal.com - Date: 31/8/10 21:15 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 31/8/10 21:19 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] geezer-also.livejournal.com - Date: 31/8/10 21:39 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] geezer-also.livejournal.com - Date: 31/8/10 23:49 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] geezer-also.livejournal.com - Date: 1/9/10 01:14 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] geezer-also.livejournal.com - Date: 31/8/10 23:30 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] geezer-also.livejournal.com - Date: 31/8/10 23:40 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 31/8/10 18:57 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] majortom-thecat.livejournal.com
It's much more difficult for a religion to police it's members than it is for a nation.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 31/8/10 21:19 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 31/8/10 19:01 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] spaz-own-joo.livejournal.com
Why should they need to earn your sympathy by policing their own, when you're satisfied merely to have "no tolerance" against anti-Muslim extremists, but not effectively suppress them?

I mean, I don't think that it's your responsibility to do more than that, but I also don't think Muslims have to go further than this to earn our concern. They've got it just by virtue of being Americans, haven't they?

(no subject)

Date: 31/8/10 19:19 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] enders-shadow.livejournal.com
"I'm sorry those extremists attacking Muslims aren't Americans and are no concern of mine."

What? How do you figure that they aren't Americans?

(no subject)

Date: 31/8/10 20:21 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dwer.livejournal.com
it's funny, because if it were a Burlington Coat factory wanting to build in an abandoned Islamic community center, and there were muslims picketing the actions because the community center was "sacred ground", you'd be all libertarian about property rights and the Constitution.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] rasilio.livejournal.com - Date: 31/8/10 21:54 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] dwer.livejournal.com - Date: 31/8/10 23:20 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 1/9/10 06:21 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] anfalicious.livejournal.com
Americans are a peace loving people

lol.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] mahnmut.livejournal.com - Date: 1/9/10 08:58 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 1/9/10 12:15 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] eracerhead.livejournal.com
Apparently, nobody sees what you did there.

(no subject)

Date: 31/8/10 19:17 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] debergerac.livejournal.com
liberals defending religion? and an anti-gay, anti-women, anti-jew, anti-dhimmi religion at that. what a bizarro world.
(deleted comment)

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] debergerac.livejournal.com - Date: 31/8/10 19:36 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] debergerac.livejournal.com - Date: 31/8/10 19:49 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] debergerac.livejournal.com - Date: 31/8/10 21:06 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] debergerac.livejournal.com - Date: 1/9/10 16:16 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] debergerac.livejournal.com - Date: 1/9/10 23:32 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] debergerac.livejournal.com - Date: 3/9/10 16:49 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] debergerac.livejournal.com - Date: 3/9/10 22:36 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] debergerac.livejournal.com - Date: 31/8/10 19:28 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 31/8/10 19:21 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] enders-shadow.livejournal.com
It's funny, cause I have a Muslim co-worker who works side-by-side, elbow-to-elbow with women, jews and gays.

Bizarro world? i'm not so sure

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] debergerac.livejournal.com - Date: 31/8/10 19:27 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 1/9/10 09:00 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mahnmut.livejournal.com
How about defending civil rights?

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] debergerac.livejournal.com - Date: 1/9/10 23:16 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 1/9/10 18:41 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] reality-hammer.livejournal.com
iawtc

And of course the straw man that being critical of (radical) Islam is the same as hating Muslims.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] debergerac.livejournal.com - Date: 1/9/10 23:40 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 31/8/10 19:22 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] enders-shadow.livejournal.com
oh, and, mod: pending for deletion tag? Why?

(no subject)

Date: 31/8/10 21:29 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kinvore.livejournal.com
Anyone can add a tag, just because it's there doesn't mean a mod placed it. Someone's just being a douche would be my guess, could be wrong.

I'll see if I can remove it, though.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] dukexmachismo.livejournal.com - Date: 31/8/10 22:39 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] kinvore.livejournal.com - Date: 31/8/10 22:45 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] dukexmachismo.livejournal.com - Date: 31/8/10 22:58 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] headhouse.livejournal.com - Date: 1/9/10 01:30 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 31/8/10 19:25 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gunslnger.livejournal.com
Anti-Semitism is not religious prejudice. A better comparison is to the anti-Christian and anti-religious rhetoric that the Left has always spouted.

And I agree with Cupp and note that you're putting words in his/her mouth immediately after you quote him/her.

The proper question is “How much of a problem is Islamaphobia in this country?”

Not as much as you think and not as much as some people want it to be.

(no subject)

Date: 31/8/10 19:29 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] enders-shadow.livejournal.com
A) Cupp is a she
B) I'm opposed to religions, mostly, cause I think they are false. I'm not anti-muslim/christian/jew, I'm anti-fairlytales
C) So how much of a problem is it?

Is it like racism in 1800's America? prolly not that bad
Is it like racism in early 1900's America?
Is it a bigger or smaller problem than anti-atheist sentiment in this country?

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] gunslnger.livejournal.com - Date: 1/9/10 05:53 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] mahnmut.livejournal.com - Date: 1/9/10 09:06 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] gunslnger.livejournal.com - Date: 1/9/10 18:15 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] debergerac.livejournal.com - Date: 31/8/10 19:31 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] sgiffy.livejournal.com - Date: 31/8/10 20:02 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] debergerac.livejournal.com - Date: 31/8/10 20:56 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] sgiffy.livejournal.com - Date: 31/8/10 20:59 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] debergerac.livejournal.com - Date: 31/8/10 21:11 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] sgiffy.livejournal.com - Date: 31/8/10 21:16 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] debergerac.livejournal.com - Date: 31/8/10 21:17 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] sgiffy.livejournal.com - Date: 31/8/10 21:21 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] debergerac.livejournal.com - Date: 1/9/10 16:05 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] telemann.livejournal.com - Date: 1/9/10 02:44 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] debergerac.livejournal.com - Date: 1/9/10 16:08 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] rasilio.livejournal.com - Date: 31/8/10 21:59 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] gunslnger.livejournal.com - Date: 1/9/10 05:57 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 31/8/10 20:49 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] gunslnger.livejournal.com - Date: 1/9/10 06:02 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 1/9/10 13:54 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] prog-expat.livejournal.com - Date: 31/8/10 23:06 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 1/9/10 13:53 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 31/8/10 21:34 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kinvore.livejournal.com
It's not as far as I know. Anyone can add tags and someone is probably just trolling. Sorry for the delay but I've removed it. Please PM me if it appears again.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] the-rukh.livejournal.com - Date: 31/8/10 21:56 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] kinvore.livejournal.com - Date: 31/8/10 22:21 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] kinvore.livejournal.com - Date: 31/8/10 22:48 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] mahnmut.livejournal.com - Date: 1/9/10 09:08 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 31/8/10 20:14 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] malasadas.livejournal.com
You know that I've been unwilling to sign on to past posts of yours where you try to draw a line between bombastic rhetoric and yet-to-materialize violence or threats.

But this is different. This is much more clear from where I sit.

Given the actual FACTS of this "controversy" (The "mosque" is a community center where prayers can be held, the site is in the neighborhood but not on ground zero, the sect is Sufi Islam the followers of which Osama Bin Laden would gladly murder, the Imam has been sent by both Presidents Bush and Obama as a goodwill embassador, the plans to build have been in the works for years but it "suddenly" a controversy in the summer before an election, there are Muslims already praying in the building...ad infinitum) and it is very very clear to me that some exceptionally evil hearted people have deliberately ginned this up in a cynical effort to exploit an ugly mood for political gain.

It already has blood on its hands. It already has vandalism on its hands. I will not be at all surprised if it ends up with a body count.

And I could not be more disgusted. When this country was attacked in 2001, one of the bright spots in the sorrow that followed it was what we did NOT do. Sure, I did not approve of the administration's foreign policy objectives after the attacks, and I thought moves towards profiling were ill considered. But the country did not rise up in a populist rage against our Muslim population -- there were a few incidents and tense moments, but other countries, even our peer democracies, would have seen a populist riot with blood in response to such an attack.

We didn't and it spoke very well to what is RIGHT about America. And right about now, I see some extremely cynical idealogues doing their best to NOW stir up that populist outrage not at the people who attacked us, but against Islam in general and the entirely respectable Muslims in specific who are planning to build on this site.

The people opposing the community center in Manhattan and Islamic projects everywhere else should take a good hard look at why they oppose them and think again. The people whipping up this "issue" for cheap political gain should be ashamed of themselves.

(no subject)

Date: 31/8/10 20:25 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dreadfulpenny81.livejournal.com
I just heard about the incidents in Florida and California. To paraphrase Janeane Garofalo, that's pure bigotry, straight up. It's a disgrace.

By the way, it seems as if all these stories are coming out now but the defacing of the Nashville center was in February and the pipe bomb in Florida was in May. So where was the media then? Just a thought...

(And thank you for citing the cross-post)

(no subject)

Date: 1/9/10 08:28 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mahnmut.livejournal.com
This confrontation against Islam has been long in the making. Ever since GWB and his clique stepped up the anti-Arab rhetoric and started brainwashing the public about Teh Eevul Terriztz Who Are Here To Destroy Us Coz They Hate Our Way Of Life.

(no subject)

Date: 1/9/10 13:51 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
Actually GWB said repeatedly that the war was against terrorists and that Islam itself was a peaceful religion. I hate the man's legacy but this is one problem that *he* did not leave.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] reality-hammer.livejournal.com - Date: 1/9/10 18:44 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 1/9/10 09:53 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] woopflying.livejournal.com

EH?
A Christian, a Muslim and a Buddhist die and arrive at the Gate of Heaven. An angel (or deva) stops them and asks, "Why do you come here? Can you tell me the reasons why you are allowed to enter Heaven?"

The Christian replies, "My ancestors disobeyed God, and I sinned all my life: I killed, I lied, I cheated my wife and I was greedy. However, Jesus died for me and all my sins are forgiven. So I deserved to enter Heaven."

"OK," replies the Angel. "Sounds good, but I must give you an entrance examination before you can enter." The Christian promptly agrees and the Angel asks him: "How do you spell God?" It is an easy question, and the Christian passes through the Gate.

Next came the Muslim, who says, "I had not done any good or evil things during my life but I was very devout. I prayed to God five times a day. So, I too should enter Heaven." The Angel replies, "It sounds OK to me, but I have to give you a test also. How do you spell Allah?" The Muslim passed the test.

Finally, it is the Buddhist's turn, who tells the Angel, "I had done all the good things in my life and I followed Buddha's five prescepts: I never killed, I donated to charities, I meditated every day, and I never cheated my boss nor my customers." The Angel replies, "That is very good, but there are no exceptions. You must pass the entrance test also in order to get in." Thinking that the test should be simple, he agrees to take the test.

The Angel then asks him: "How to spell Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva?"

Facts are stubborn things

Date: 1/9/10 18:58 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] reality-hammer.livejournal.com
Not to rain on your righteous indignation parade but....


Religious bias (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2008/incidents.html)

There were 1,606 hate crime offenses motivated by religious bias in 2008. A breakdown of these offenses shows:

* 65.7 percent were anti-Jewish.
* 13.2 percent were anti-other religion.
* 7.7 percent were anti-Islamic.
* 4.7 percent were anti-Catholic.
* 4.2 percent were anti-multiple religions, group.
* 3.7 percent were anti-Protestant.
* 0.9 percent were anti-Atheism/Agnosticism/etc. (Based on Table 1.)



So the neocons Jews have dibs on the "help, we're being oppressed" campaign.

Credits & Style Info

Monthly topic:
Post-Truth Politics Revisited

Dailyquote:
"The NATO charter clearly says that any attack on a NATO member shall be treated, by all members, as an attack against all. So that means that, if we attack Greenland, we'll be obligated to go to war against ... ourselves! Gee, that's scary. You really don't want to go to war with the United States. They're insane!"

May 2026

M T W T F S S
     1 23
4567 8910
11 121314 1516 17
1819 2021222324
25262728293031