Sex: at what age are people ready?

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

One of my friends put this up on google BUZZ (which, BTW, is twitter without the idiotic 140 character limit, hence it's not necessarily craptastic)



And, well, my response was: "oh, there's a double standard based upon gender? color me shocked"

But this raises a question which I have grappled with before, and which most people may have pondered at some point.

Why do we have Age of Consent laws? And are they appropriate?

Back in college, while taking a class on sexuality, I did a project dealing with this topic. IIRC there is no country in the world with an AoC under 12, nor over 21. Here in America it's 18 (tho it varies state by state, iirc, some go as low as 16)

While I am of the opinion that 12 is too young to have sex, and 21 is too old to have as a minimum AoC precisely where the line should be drawn is a tricky question; it's one of those "grey-areas" that people talk about when they say the world isn't black and white.

So, I fully admit that I have no fully fitting rubric for when AoC should be; indeed the problem, IMO is, that people develop and mature at different speeds. There are probably 15 y/o's who are mature enough to consent to sex--but then for every 15 y/o so mature there are 2 who are not. Thus the problem with AoC laws; they lump everyone in an age group together and claim that they are all the same--either that or they just ignore the differences.

So, because this is an international comm, I begin by asking:

What's the AoC in your country? Do you agree with it?

And then, as is usual, I want to hear your opinion.

What do you think AoC laws should be?


Oh, and I leave y'all with a lil joke:

Y'all remember that trend of hot female teachers having sex with their underage male students? Well, the first guy in that trend died recently.

He died from an overdose of high-fives.

Comments

[mijopo.livejournal.com]

Thus the problem with AoC laws; they lump everyone in an age group together and claim that they are all the same--either that or they just ignore the differences.

No, such laws don't claim or even assume that all people of that age group are the same. Rather this is deemed to be a simple way to solve a very hard problem, i.e., identify an age at which it's likely a given person will be mature enough to fuck/drink/vote/go to war, etc., acknowledging that it will be a bit too late for some and a bit too early for others but adequate for most. The alternatives would be to not legislate on the matter at all or devise some test to determine whether or not a particular person is qualified/ready.

I think AoC laws of 18 are appropriate, allowing, of course, for exceptions when both parties are below that age, or when the age diff. is small, e.g., 19-17, and possibly tighter restrictions when a person in a position of authority is involved. e.g., you must be 21 before you can screw your professor to try for an A.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

Why is 18 appropriate and 17 is not?

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

And I realize that you realize it's a grey area; but that's the problem with grey areas. There's hardly a definitive line between 17 and 18 and as such, the 25 y/o who sleeps with an 18 y/o is fine; but if (s)he sleeps with a 17 y/o (s)he can face a long prison term.
That seems....kinda weird.

[malasadas.livejournal.com]

Your "joke" is indicative of a particularly ugly cultural trope about boys and sex.

And no, I won't go any further than that because "HULK MAD HULK SMASH" is not an appropriate conclusion for the argument.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

yes, it's a joke that fits with the "American Pie" mentality

But it's a joke, and if you cannot appreciate humor, well, sucks to be you.

[dierdrae.livejournal.com]

It's okay, fem-raging right along with you.

[steve-potocin.livejournal.com]

Those are some hideous looking broads on that website link.....I count maybe 3 that were fuckable....no wonder they had to resort to raping children.....

That said....I think the Age of Consent should be abolished.....we coddle our children too much when it comes to sex.....I started when I was a mere 13 years old,and I turned out just fine......

[malasadas.livejournal.com]

Oh look, you pole vaulted from tired troll to loathesome pig. Congrats.

[dierdrae.livejournal.com]

I was always under the impression that in NJ, age of consent is 16. I have no idea if that's correct or not, but either way, I think 16 or 17 is a good age. [I also think that, for example, a 16 year old having sex with a 15 year old should not be persecuted. That's just dumb. Laws should have some common sense. Maybe a year on either side of the cutoff is okay?] Here is my reasoning, such as it is.

15: Too young because you're still early enough in the teenage years that your emotions are probably still a bit fried, and you're likely not even halfway through high school yet, and any adult would most likely just be taking advantage of you. You can't drive, for crying out loud.

18: Not necessarily 'too old,' but many kids graduate high school earlier than age 18 [including me], and can drive, etc, and 18's just pushing it and being unrealistic.

16: Borderline too young in my mind, because I know so many 16 year olds who still seem like children, but I'm okay with it- I know a lot of 16 year olds who are pretty damn mature, too.

17: What I personally think is ideal as a good mixture of young and mature.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

I believe there are states where 14 y/o's can drive.

But fair enough.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

Y'see the only bad thing is when *men* violate the age of consent rules. Women do it without penalty and get fame and Lifetime movies about their One Twoo Wuv. Fucking disgusting.

[reflaxion.livejournal.com]

There are quite a few former teachers who would have words with you over that statement, btu they can't because they're in prison.

[gifa.livejournal.com]

In the real world... telling your kids they can't or shouldn't or that you don't want them to... is practically a guarantee that they will.

The legal age of 18 is a happy middle ground where by all accounts, physically and mentally, you should be adequately mature enough to take care of yourself.


In the ideal world that doesn't exist anywhere but in my own mind... As long as you are being counted as a dependent on your parent's taxes, then it is up to them to decide when your legal AoC is...

This does not mean that your virginity is protected by law until you move out... it simply means your parents can decide what is and what is not appropriate for you, whether sex is appropriate at 12 or 18 or whatever... After all, they know you best and it's their job to care for you. I know of very few adults who would find 12 years old acceptable... and this does NOT include instances of incest.

So if you come home and you're 15, and your folks find out you've lost your virginity to the 17 year old (who is also still counted as a dependent) who dropped you off... your parents can decide to pursue statutory legal action or not...whether you want them to or not...

If you are 18-21, and you want to be an adult, and do adult things without your parents getting all up in your business... THEN MOVE OUT OF YOUR PARENT'S HOUSE and start acting like an adult.

[verytwistedmind.livejournal.com]

Well said.

[reflaxion.livejournal.com]

17 here in NY, with exceptions for age differentials of four years or less (20/16 is OK). Using that figure as a reference for my convenience in the remainder of this post.

I don't believe there's a big difference between 16.9 and 17, nor do I think that all people below 17 are necessarily too young or that all people over 17 are ready. However, I do support the law, because our legal system doesn't leave a lot of room for subjective reasoning and a line has to be drawn somewhere. Sucks for the 22-year-old guy who just nailed a 16-year-old girl, but if you shift the line, it's just a different set of people who end up screwed by it.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

So you support the law because a line has to be drawn somewhere

But why there?

iirc, England has 16 as AoC

Are English teens different in a relevant way? Or do you accept that they set a different standard and that their standard is also OK?

Sure, no matter where the line is drawn, someone just shy of that line may be as mature as someone just over the line, and thus "someone" will get "screwed up by it"

But that still doesn't explain why 17 is the proper age and 16 is not.

So while I tend to agree that somewhere between 16-18 and is the proper AoC precisely why *this* age and not a lil older or a lil younger is not something anyone has really been able to explain.

Compare Hemoraging Gangrel from Harry Potter to Jacob from Twilight

[verytwistedmind.livejournal.com]

This isn't the best picture but I remember when this "Legal" Poster first floated around. She still looks like a little girl to me. Most of the time, it seems as if the older men who are drooling over young women are doing so in a sick pedophile manor. My point is further proved by this final comment on the motivational poster ('who cares hit it anyway'=gross) Now compare this yougn man from the Twilight movie.



He looks masculine and mature. Good jaw, broad shoudlers, well built. Not some skinny little boy look.

Re: Compare Hemoraging Gangrel from Harry Potter to Jacob from Twilight

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

...so it's how people are presented?

Is this like the argument by Sasha Grey that when she went on Oprah they dressed her to look young, meanwhile she showed up dressed differently and wearing clothing that makes her look older?

iirc, there was a case in England where a man slept with what turned out to be a 12 y/o female, who, upon appearance, looked to be 16 (which is AoC in England)

Even the judge/prosecuting attorney in the case admitted that upon looking at her, she looked 16, not 12

Don't know what happened in that trial, but I bet the dude is behind bars.

AoC thought

[verytwistedmind.livejournal.com]

The only time I have any issue of AoC is when it's between two children (anyone under 20). You read stories all the time about a 19 year old going to jail for being with his 14 year old gf. In fact there was one such story about my state, Nebraska, where the young man fled with her and was caught in Chicago or Colorado. His excuse "I live in a small town there are no women my age to date". He went to jail. I think he shouldn't have. On the same note I think any 21 year old man sleeping with a 16 year old girl (AoC in NE) is sick and should be jailed.

My concern with the double standard is that young men who have sex early with older women then seek out girls their own age who are not mature enough for sex. Especially casaul sex which is about as deep as any 15 year old boy can handle.

Re: AoC thought

[reflaxion.livejournal.com]

Your example creates a problem for the 19-year-old with a 14-year-old girlfriend, as he'd have to break up with her in two years when he's 21 and she's 16.

[telemann.livejournal.com]

I think the AOC laws should be equal to voting, and military service. If you're adult enough to have sex, then you're an adult. I don't know the history of the laws in the United States or in the UK, but were teenagers maturing earlier or later during the 18th and 19th centuries compared to today?

[a-new-machine.livejournal.com]

Depends on how you look at it. A lot of the Founders, for instance, were involved in more adult activities earlier, but really that's just the difference between an apprenticeship style and the modern broad educational style, I think.

[light-over-me.livejournal.com]

I'm in the US, and I think in my state it's 16. Personally I think that's about right...somewhere in the middle, not too young, not too old. Unfortunately, it's pretty subjective, and different people mature at different rates... it's probably more correct to say it should be a range of ages. So ages like 14 or 16 or 18 or 21 are chosen, and I think many of these also coincide with other rights of passage and age related privileges in society such as the ability to drive, work, vote, drink alcohol, or smoke, etc.

I don't know if there's any real scientific or objective reason for a specific age over another (16 versus 17). It comes mainly from cultural norms and society (for better or worse). But of course, sometimes events will occur that cause people to lobby for having these ages raised or changed. Like cases of drunk driving playing a part in influencing the decision to raise the drinking age in America from 18 to 21. Likewise, in some states they want to raise the driving age and introduce more restrictions on student drivers (curfews, etc). These are all factors that cause society to make and change age restrictions over time.

[oportet.livejournal.com]

It does get annoying when they keep blackmailing you for more free ice cream.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

ZOMG YOU ARE THE REASON VICTIMS OF RAPE DON'T REPORT IT!

[geezer-also.livejournal.com]

You know what a philosophy major gets after college?
Unemployment.

You are becoming tiresome, as I believe you are not being deliberately obtuse, you really don't get it.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

That's odd. I had a job the day I graduated.

not to mention: money is the goal in life, aint it?

[redheadrat.livejournal.com]

IMHO the coming of age laws (military, voting, sex, driving)should be coming in affect at the same time maybe with some minor adjustments due to other specific social factors (education status, military, health).

In my state the AoC is 14, but there is a provision that if one partner is under 16, the other partner cannot be more than 2 years older, so for most purposes 16 is the age.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

What state?

In Queensland Australia it is 16

[brockulfsen.livejournal.com]

An adequate compromise.

The problem is not with having Age of Consent laws, the problem is that The Law Is An Ass.

So you get stupidity and injustice when ordinary people fall afoul of the law. 16 year olds facing court because they went further than kissing with a 15 year old. So then compromises are made, the Justice Department and Police enact a policy (subject to change without notice and not having the force of law) not to prosecute under 16s when there is a less than 2 year age difference, except when they feel like it.

Sex is a hot button item, so sanity goes out the window. All Age of Consent laws should be explicitly drafted to protect the children, and the innocent (ie those without criminal intent).

Re: In Queensland Australia it is 16

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

Yes, sanity certainly does go out the window when people talk sex.

It's hard to legislate on areas that are so clearly grey, but nonetheless so clearly in need of *some* kind of law.

[confliction.livejournal.com]

There's an informal rule amongst people in England, at least, that says:

Half your age, and add 7 years. That's your range for what you can 'hit'.

If we were to extrapolate that... this means the working age limit is 14 years old... but only other 14 year olds can hit that.

16 year olds can hit 15 yrs.

18 can hit 16.

20 can hit 17.

22 can hit 18.

Sounds fair?

[mijopo.livejournal.com]

Sounds fair?

Um, no, it means I can't have sex with chicks in college. (a man can dream)

It's a matter of family law.

[sophia-sadek.livejournal.com]

A child is a war of their parental guardian until they reach the age of consent. It has less to do with nature and more to do with the Law.

Re: It's a matter of family...

[the-rukh.livejournal.com]

So if the parent is involved it's ok!

[rasilio.livejournal.com]

I have just one thing to say in response to this.

The last time I engaged in a discussion on this topic I had members of 3 snark communities e-mailing my wife telling her I'm a pedophile trolling the internet for underage girls to cheat on her with (none of which is true, not a pedophile, not trolling the internet for anyone, and certainly not looking to cheat).

Simply put this topic is one on which there can be no conversation because emotions run too high.

[ironhawke.livejournal.com]

This.

Reading through the other threads (specifically about the joke), I'm finding the inability to find rational discourse ridiculous. People need to chill. the. fuck. out.

[anyusa0030.livejournal.com]

i think that laws like this are written to protect against extreams,i dont think the sponser of this law were really thinking about the 17 year old dating the 16 yer old, radher they were more likelly thinkinng of the 40 year old having sexual relations with the 14 year,15yr,16 or whatever the case maybe.things like this are hard to regulate thus laws such as this ccann sometimes creat unfair situations the 17 year old going to jail for having sex with the girlfriend he as been dating since he was 16 being one,but at the end of the day are we better off with the law or not ,i think we are.ho in my country their is no age of concent,but then if my brothers find that am having sex with a 30 year old they will just go and take out his eyes so i gues there is after all.

[eracerhead.livejournal.com]

A lot of these responses miss the point. What are we actually trying to protect post pubescent teenagers from?

Predation...

[sophia-sadek.livejournal.com]

... is the most reasonable fear. Older people can string along a teen to take advantage of their "innocence." This reminds me of the movie An Education.

Good point.

[sophia-sadek.livejournal.com]

I talked to a guy who said he made a personal vow to never sleep with a woman who wasn't alive and aware at the time of the JFK assassination.