Fighting Words

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

So this link was given by someone in a thread in this comm a bit back. I stumbled upon it, thought it was interesting and read it. It's not terribly long. Go ahead, read it. I'll wait.

Awesome, now I have a question.

How come Fred Phelps and his WBC aren't subject to this? I mean, isn't his whole shpeel that he pisses people off so they hit him, he files a civil suit and uses the $$ earned to go to the next place and piss off more people with his hate filled speech.

From SCOTUS:

It is well understood that the right of free speech is not absolute at all times and under all circumstances. There are certain well-defined and narrowly limited classes of speech, the prevention and punishment of which has never been thought to raise any Constitutional problem. These include the lewd and obscene, the profane, the libelous, and the insulting or “fighting” words — those which by their very utterance inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace. It has been well observed that such utterances are no essential part of any exposition of ideas, and are of such slight social value as a step to truth that any benefit may be derived from them is clearly outweighed by the social interest in order and morality

I do not like censorship, and I am against it the majority of the times. Yet Phelps and WBC serves *no social value* [IMO] and if it has even a shred of social value, it is outweighed by the infliction of injury and the inciting of a breach of the peace.

this is a bit tired and treaded, sorry, but the link rekindled my interest in the topic.

~Namaste

Comments

[blorky.livejournal.com]

"Yet Phelps and WBC serves *no social value* [IMO] and if it has even a shred of social value, it is outweighed by the infliction of injury and the inciting of a breach of the peace." I agree, but don't like the precedent.

In other words, if I were King, I'd have them shot. If I were on the SCOTUS, I'd hold for their right to spew.

[qnetter]

I'm not aware of them ever collecting damages from anyone -- do you have cases?

[blorky.livejournal.com]

I don't think they ever collected damages, but when the family of one of the people who's funeral they picketed sued, it eventually went to appeals court. The federal appeals court held in favor of WBC activities being free speech, and ordered the plaintiff to pay WBC's court costs. With a SCOTUS decision to hear the case, that's still up in the air.

[fizzyland.livejournal.com]

It's noxious but unfortunately the Phelps clan is very careful and calculated in what they say and how they say it so they can stay in those ambiguous areas.

Personally, I think the best way to deal with bad(or hateful) ideas is by a good airing and then giving response. The problem with "no redeeming social value" type arguments is that they are like porn - everyone agrees it exists, no one can agree what it is, exactly.

[rev-proffessor.livejournal.com]

Not only that but some people actually like porn. It can't be just a small minority making all the internets nekid.

[fizzyland.livejournal.com]

True and the theme of government repression/control of vice is a topic unto itself.

Personally when it comes to censorship, for me it pretty much has to be considered incitement - if there's a call to action that is not in society's good, then. Otherwise, let's deal with bad ideas by responding with better ones.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

While that's a fine personal limit, the link indicates that courts have come to a very different conclusion than you.

Not that it means they are right--or that you are wrong. Just that the law of the land is different from your POV.

[fizzyland.livejournal.com]

Which is why I said personally.

Court rulings aren't immune to personal bias or political agendas, sadly.

[3fgburner.livejournal.com]

Eleven of Fred's thirteen spawn are lawyers. That says it all.

Back in '08, they went to Little Rock, Arkansas. Ran afoul of the local Pastafarians. Hilarity ensued.

[fizzyland.livejournal.com]

I believe that mockery and a firm refusal to get riled up by them or give them any attention would cause them to wither up and ooze away.

[a-new-machine.livejournal.com]

A lot easier said from where you sit than done when it's your kid whose death they're celebrating.

[fizzyland.livejournal.com]

True, that's where some of the counterdemonstrations making noise and blocking out the Phelps crowd has been handy.

I don't like it - and particularly funerals shouldn't be considered public events. The Phelps clan are reprehensible people, I'm sure I'm not the only one who has uncivilized thoughts in response to their actions.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

No you are not.

This may be repetition but WBC came to my college and protested the death of a guy I knew [attended some of the same parties] and one of my better friends was very close with the now deceased.

He *really* wanted to do harm to WBC--he was Catholic and took God kinda seriously; as an Atheist "god hates fags" or whatever shrugs off my shoulders. But for those who believe in eternal damnation, and are being told their beloved child/friend is there, well, it hurts them.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

Ridicule and satire are the most potent weapons of mankind...

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

Oh man, that woulda been great.

I <3 FSM

[kenderkin.livejournal.com]

Phelps and the WBC are currently planning on protesting at Ronnie James Dio's memorial service on May 30th in Los Angeles according to the following link.

http://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=140446

I think I remember a discussion previously regarding protests at funeral/memorial services. While I can understand the freedom of speech part, it's still extremely distasteful. Especially when there's no reason for it, other than hate.

[fizzyland.livejournal.com]

They want to piss off a crowd of metalheads, that could work out poorly.

[readherring.livejournal.com]

...or it could be ultra-fortified awesome.

[http://users.livejournal.com/aviation_/]

iconlove

[fizzyland.livejournal.com]

Bwahahaha! That was some unexpected entertainment value.

[a-new-machine.livejournal.com]

Correction: Dio's not dead. He's just out too long in the midnight sea.

[telemann.livejournal.com]

They're making political statements on several levels. They should have freedom of speech protection. The argument about violation of privacy at funeral events is a compelling one though, there was a lengthy post about that a month or two ago.

I know at several of the military funerals, local veterans and community groups create a human blockade around Phelps' group, buffering their protests with their own. It's a bit of a circus, but hey, Phelps brought it on himself.

That said: macro time!Shirley Phelps-Roper is one scary looking chick.

[http://users.livejournal.com/aviation_/]

Well, obviously Phelps serves no "social value" but this isn't the reason why we have freedom of speech... Just because they are contributing nothing to the good of mankind doesn't mean they cannot speak. Otherwise we'd have to silence a lot more people than just this nuthouse cult.

People's outrage with Phelps is a bit tiring for me... Of course you disagree with them. They do not have a history of violence. They are hardly the group to worry about. They are offensive, yes. To pretty much any decent human being, even if they hold similar beliefs to the Westboro Church.

Sometimes I tell myself Fred Phelps is creating the world's biggest hoax and that his followers have no idea.

[http://users.livejournal.com/aviation_/]

Yeah, I don't actually think that he is... but sometimes I think about this theory in which he is intentionally linking hate for the military with hate for homosexuality to create a shift of thinking among the religious right... then I realize this is just my plan of what I wish were true.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

The problem is that as long as these guys *aren't* censored it serves to perfectly discredit the homophobes' fears of the Rainbow stormtroops dragging them off to the Joy Hotels in the middle of the night. Sure, he's a douchebag, but so long as he waves his little signs it's pretty blatant that the Fundies who fear that hate crimes bills will censor their right to paint all gays as Einsatzgruppen killer dicks with AIDs who should be confined to concentration camps are lying through their teeth.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

The courts are not saying what you are saying.

Did you read the link?

[sealwhiskers.livejournal.com]

Some people back in Sweden have read Phelp's godhatessweden page (and noted all the zillion factual faults), and it has sadly affected how they look on Americans a bit, where it shouldn't have. It's not like they think he's a standard American..but some might think that he isn't as loony and unrepresentative as he is.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

He is a pox upon our house.

Then again, we have so many....and it's always the squeaky wheel that gets the oil....

[devil-ad-vocate.livejournal.com]

Sorry, I detest this bunch, but censorship is wrong. It's not a movement - just one small family of nutcases controlled by the father nutcase. Hopefully, at some point he will decide the world is just too 'sinful' and they will all have a Kool-Aid party.

[dreadfulpenny81.livejournal.com]

I've done a lot of research on them over the past several years because I run a website against them. I've even had phone discussions with them and I'm friends with one of the sons who left the church.
Being that most of the senior members of the church are lawyers, they've found loopholes. They did run into trouble about a year ago when the courts found out they didn't pay taxes on their truck. The church tried to argue that because they use it for "religious purposes", they're exempt. However, the courts ruled that over 50% of the signs they transport in the vehicle are politically motivated, so they ended up having to pay taxes on it. Rumor has it they also claimed their backyard swimming pool as a church expense because they use it for baptisms. Yeah, bizarre.
By the way, the group that's usually at military funerals to create a separating baracade is the Patriot Guard Riders. They don't go to every funeral that the Phelps family/WBC protests. They only go to events when they're invited by the family of the deceased. I'm a member, and stood with some others at a funeral in Pennsylvania two years ago. WBC was supposed to be there, but they never show up. Most of the time it's because their permits don't get approved. They have to file for a permit for protest (to reserve police protection, that sort-of thing) before they can go and if their permit isn't approved, they just don't show up. So really, it's at the discretion of most cities as to whether or not these people can protest their depending on laws and statutes, but they can't just refuse them without reason or else it'll look like religious discrimination.