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1/4/10 14:24![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
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talkpoliticsArguments about gun control invariably center around two areas - the Constitutional component and the public health and safety component.
The Constitutional piece, while far more interesting to me, is the easier of the two. The 2nd Amendment states "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." Well, the first thing I notice when I read this is that if it were handed in to a high school professor, this sentence would probably be highlighted in red marker with a note reading "Mr. Madison, see me after class." The language and vernacular has changed, and arguments about whether the first clause indicate a restriction of who's allowed to own guns don't really hold water. In the vernacular of the time it was written, that prefatory clause is indicative of an example of the right's context, rather than a condition of the right. You're also seemingly allowed to use commas with reckless disregard for the public good.
Arguments to the effect that the founders didn't foresee modern weapons are similarly irrelevant. You don't lose your right to free speech because you're spouting your opinion in the Internet, and you (mostly) don't lose your right to protection from illegal search and seizure because modern search technology involves through the wall heat sensors, electronic surveillance or remote sensing satellites.
Arguments about modifications of the granted right lead directly into the "public good" component of the argument. The first amendment is just as direct, but over time, abridgments to the complete freedom of speech have been held to be constitutional in instances where complete FoS is not in the public good. Libel, obscenity laws, truth in advertising, imminent lawless action, and other special cases all modify a blanket license for FoS. Similarly, I'm of the opinion that there are reasonable limits on access to gun ownership, as long as the public good is established.
Before we dive into this section, it's important to ask 3 questions
- How many gun deaths are there in the US every year?
- How many of those are criminal in nature as opposed to accidents or suicide?
- How many incidents occur where someone defends themselves with a gun every year in the US?
If you don't know the answers to those questions without looking them up, you do not have an informed opinion on the public health component of the argument.
The answers, btw are:
- About 30k
- Less than half
- It's really hard to get good stats - anywhere between 600k and 2.4m incidents. (Source: search Google on "DGU" or Defensive gun use" *)
My stance is that while gun violence is a real problem, most currently proposed gun control measures are not going to substantively reduce crime, AND they will reduce an individuals ability to defend themselves. (When you prepare your counter argument, put yourself in the place of a 90 lb woman defending themselves against a rapist or an elderly person defending themselves against a violent mugging. You're not Brock Lesnar defending himself against a pickpocket.) Additionally, recent studies which compare crime rates in communities which have lax CCW regulations to those that restrict CCW's indicate that the effect that knowing a potential victim could be carrying might serve to lower the crime rate.
I'd like to address some known rebuttals at this point:
- "X country has gun control and their crime rates/suicide rates are better/worse than the US." I don't believe that cross cultural comparisons are sufficient to rebut the issue about self defense. Finland has a much lower gun ownership rate and a much higher suicide rate (http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvinco.html and other sources). Other countries have different constellations of gun ownership and violence rates. Factors other than gun ownership rates contribute more to crime/gun violence/suicide rates than simple gun ownership does. Therefore, if you are trying to control gun ownership rates at a macro level, you are not actually working to reduce crime/violence/suicide.
- "Nobody needs a gun that can [fire rapidly/shoot big bullets/looks ugly]." Good point but irrelevant. Nobody NEEDS these things, but the role of government isn't to prohibit anything people don't NEED, particularly if it reduces their ability to defend themselves.
- "Reckless/stupid people will get guns and use them inappropriately". Good point. I'm ok with an educational requirement for gun ownership, but not an outright prohibition as DC had for many years.
Lastly, if you're in favor of prohibiting guns entirely, let me know if you're also in favor of prohibiting alcohol entirely. Alcohol causes more deaths per year, is essentially a recreational product, and nobody's ever fought off an attacker with a Tom Collins.
* Don't ask for my sources if you don't want to hear "Do a Google search for X". I didn't do any complicated research - it's all available if you want to look for it.
EDIT: Restrictions I'm ok with:
- Gun registration doesn't bother me too much. Most of the cops I know feel its a useful investigatory tool
- 5 day waiting period doesn't bother me too much, but I would be happier if there was a waiver for someone demonstrating an urgent cause (protection order where they're in fear for their life.)
- Felons can't have guns. I'm ok with that. You've already demonstrated that you have bad judgment.
- I'm ok with certain kinds of firearms being restricted. Your ability to cause mayhem with a bazooka and endanger the public good exceeds my admittedly hazy line about your right to recreational devices.
I'm sure there's more that I'm not presently thinking of.
The Constitutional piece, while far more interesting to me, is the easier of the two. The 2nd Amendment states "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." Well, the first thing I notice when I read this is that if it were handed in to a high school professor, this sentence would probably be highlighted in red marker with a note reading "Mr. Madison, see me after class." The language and vernacular has changed, and arguments about whether the first clause indicate a restriction of who's allowed to own guns don't really hold water. In the vernacular of the time it was written, that prefatory clause is indicative of an example of the right's context, rather than a condition of the right. You're also seemingly allowed to use commas with reckless disregard for the public good.
Arguments to the effect that the founders didn't foresee modern weapons are similarly irrelevant. You don't lose your right to free speech because you're spouting your opinion in the Internet, and you (mostly) don't lose your right to protection from illegal search and seizure because modern search technology involves through the wall heat sensors, electronic surveillance or remote sensing satellites.
Arguments about modifications of the granted right lead directly into the "public good" component of the argument. The first amendment is just as direct, but over time, abridgments to the complete freedom of speech have been held to be constitutional in instances where complete FoS is not in the public good. Libel, obscenity laws, truth in advertising, imminent lawless action, and other special cases all modify a blanket license for FoS. Similarly, I'm of the opinion that there are reasonable limits on access to gun ownership, as long as the public good is established.
Before we dive into this section, it's important to ask 3 questions
- How many gun deaths are there in the US every year?
- How many of those are criminal in nature as opposed to accidents or suicide?
- How many incidents occur where someone defends themselves with a gun every year in the US?
If you don't know the answers to those questions without looking them up, you do not have an informed opinion on the public health component of the argument.
The answers, btw are:
- About 30k
- Less than half
- It's really hard to get good stats - anywhere between 600k and 2.4m incidents. (Source: search Google on "DGU" or Defensive gun use" *)
My stance is that while gun violence is a real problem, most currently proposed gun control measures are not going to substantively reduce crime, AND they will reduce an individuals ability to defend themselves. (When you prepare your counter argument, put yourself in the place of a 90 lb woman defending themselves against a rapist or an elderly person defending themselves against a violent mugging. You're not Brock Lesnar defending himself against a pickpocket.) Additionally, recent studies which compare crime rates in communities which have lax CCW regulations to those that restrict CCW's indicate that the effect that knowing a potential victim could be carrying might serve to lower the crime rate.
I'd like to address some known rebuttals at this point:
- "X country has gun control and their crime rates/suicide rates are better/worse than the US." I don't believe that cross cultural comparisons are sufficient to rebut the issue about self defense. Finland has a much lower gun ownership rate and a much higher suicide rate (http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvinco.html and other sources). Other countries have different constellations of gun ownership and violence rates. Factors other than gun ownership rates contribute more to crime/gun violence/suicide rates than simple gun ownership does. Therefore, if you are trying to control gun ownership rates at a macro level, you are not actually working to reduce crime/violence/suicide.
- "Nobody needs a gun that can [fire rapidly/shoot big bullets/looks ugly]." Good point but irrelevant. Nobody NEEDS these things, but the role of government isn't to prohibit anything people don't NEED, particularly if it reduces their ability to defend themselves.
- "Reckless/stupid people will get guns and use them inappropriately". Good point. I'm ok with an educational requirement for gun ownership, but not an outright prohibition as DC had for many years.
Lastly, if you're in favor of prohibiting guns entirely, let me know if you're also in favor of prohibiting alcohol entirely. Alcohol causes more deaths per year, is essentially a recreational product, and nobody's ever fought off an attacker with a Tom Collins.
* Don't ask for my sources if you don't want to hear "Do a Google search for X". I didn't do any complicated research - it's all available if you want to look for it.
EDIT: Restrictions I'm ok with:
- Gun registration doesn't bother me too much. Most of the cops I know feel its a useful investigatory tool
- 5 day waiting period doesn't bother me too much, but I would be happier if there was a waiver for someone demonstrating an urgent cause (protection order where they're in fear for their life.)
- Felons can't have guns. I'm ok with that. You've already demonstrated that you have bad judgment.
- I'm ok with certain kinds of firearms being restricted. Your ability to cause mayhem with a bazooka and endanger the public good exceeds my admittedly hazy line about your right to recreational devices.
I'm sure there's more that I'm not presently thinking of.
What a issue
Date: 2/4/10 14:19 (UTC)As with all improvements in technology, they were unforeseen by the Founding Fathers, they could not have envisioned the Colt hand gun or the birth of the Internet or even Online Banking. Hence, originally the Founding Fathers were talking about muskets. As time has passed, a reasonable assessment of this issue must take into account these changes.
As a person who lived the first 36 years of my life in Michigan, I don't have a problem with people who have shot guns. I grew up on a farm I know for what purpose animals are raised. Also, my family liked to go hunting during the various assigned times throughout the year. I never got a kick out of it, but hey whatever floats your boat. So regulating these guns for hunters is absurd. However, as I moved to the East and in more populated areas, I have no problem regulating automatic weapons and hand guns. These guns were developed for only one purpose, killing people. And that old argument that "if you take away guns only the criminals will have them," is hallow. The criminals have them now and anyone who knows how to get a gun illegally will get one whenever they wish. The other thing about this issue is "how do we know this witticism is true"? This nation has never tried to eliminate hand guns. . and its poor efforts in regulation of the Brady Bill in the 1990s do not show much advancement, slight but not much. The other part of this answer lies in that "if only criminals will have guns, then we know who to arrest don't we."
Crime will not go down because of the elimination of these weapons, but violent crime will. People will have to rely on physical force and while not all people are created equal in that department, it will make things more difficult on the criminal since he/she now have to engage physically with their victims rather than just shoot them. I know it is strange but think about it. The longer a victim struggles the more likely someone will notice.
And the question remains why do people feel the need to arm themselves? Crime has decreased over the last 20 or so years, mostly due to the fact that we have added more police to the payrolls. So what are you afraid of? If you live out in the middle of a field in northern CT, for example, what are you afraid of, bears? How many people have been injured by shooting someone by mistake? Thousands. I recall a story of a man in Alabama, these stories always take place in Alabama, and his daughter was coming home late and she was sneaking into the house and before the father could say anything he shot her. Now, I would be upset at my daughter, but I don't think she should have to died for making a stupid mistake.
So what it boils down to is this. keep you hunting rifles. But the hand guns and automatic weapons belong in a museum where you can go look at them but not own one. If you are so afraid of being attacked, then maybe we need to address why people feel this way? Its a psychological/sociological problem that needs to be addressed.
Re: What a issue
Date: 2/4/10 14:44 (UTC)re: FF talking about muskets. Again, you don't lose the right as the technology changes.
"Crime will not go down because of the elimination of these weapons, but violent crime will. " Please document this assertion, with specific attention to DC's attempt.
"And the question remains why do people feel the need to arm themselves? " Because they wish to defend themselves against assailants more powerful than themselves. Please explain why you're willing to take that option/right away from them.
"How many people have been injured by shooting someone by mistake? " Please explain why inappropriate use should preclude people who can use guns safely from doing so.
Please also address whether you'd be in favor of a complete ban on alcohol which is responsible for far more deaths than guns every year.
Re: What a issue
Date: 2/4/10 15:44 (UTC)The whole idea that the Revolutionary War was fought using basically medieval weaponry and the Founders had no concept that repeaters or massively destructive weapons would exist is complete (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belton_flintlock), patent (http://www.southessex.co.uk/weapons/nock.htm) bullshit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grapeshot), by the way. Hell, practically everything you say is bullshit. Guns exist only to kill people? More police = less crime? Jesus christ take a few seconds to educate yourself before you go spouting off.
Re: What a issue
Date: 3/4/10 13:15 (UTC)