Religion and the death penalty.

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty religious and also pretty liberal (in the American sense of the word) I became liberal (I used to be a Libertarian when I was younger) gradually as I've gotten older and generally been impressed with how well liberal institutions work. I regard politics as more practical than moral and don't think I have any right to have my own religious notions of morality enforced on others. Like many liberals, I object to the death penalty because if its long history of racist, classist and anti-male** application and its inherent imperfections (a single innocent being executed invalidates the whole institution.)

But, unlike other political positions I have, my disdain for the death penalty coincides with my religious beliefs on the matter. Mainly, that God's justice is perfect, God will send the sinners to hell and the righteous to heaven and it's not really possible for us, as mere mortals, to tell which is which. As such, justice as in retribution is a matter for God. We would do best to respect life and ensure our safety by locking up people who hurt others.

Yet I find that many people who are religious have no problem with the death penalty-- since religion tends to intersect of conservative politics more often. Or is there a religious connection there as well?

• Roman Catholic Church says that the death penalty is "lawful slaying" and basis this on it being a necessary deterrent and prevention method, but not as a means of vengeance. So, if it is ineffective as a deterrent (there is some evidence that this is true) --would they reject it? Recently they have though not very vocally.
• Anglican and Episcopalian bishops condemned the death penalty.
• Southern Baptist Convention updated Baptist Faith and Message. In it the convention officially sanctioned the use of capital punishment by the State. It said that it is the duty of the state to execute those guilty of murder and that God established capital punishment in the Noahic Covenant. This is different from the Roman Catholic take on it-- no mention of it excluding vengeance.
• Other Baptists reject the death penalty, my church does!
• Like Christians, Islam and Buddhists and Jews do not have a united stance on the matter.
• Atheists also have many views on the matter.

So, based on all of that, do we find no guidance in religion? I wonder how I would feel about the matter if the religious teachings I have encountered didn't match with my philosophical notions-- Is it always the case that one must shape the other? Is there anyone who thinks the death penalty should be allowed, though they suppose it is sinful or against their religion? Is there anyone who wants to stop the death penalty though they think it might not be a sin?


**We could talk about how believing it is wrong to kill a woman still further dehumanizes her-- the global effect of this furthesr sexism against women, the local effect is unfair to poor, mostly minority, men.

Comments

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

Christianity, possibly others.

[badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com]

Christianity recognizes everyone as sinners, though. It's repentance that makes a difference in that case.

[fizzyland.livejournal.com]

Almost all religion declares people basically bad and in need of redemption. It makes selling the product go easier.

[pastorlenny.livejournal.com]

Can you try to make a factual statement abourt religion?

[mrsilence.livejournal.com]

Doesn't Christianity basically state that all people are sinners and require salvation to make it into heaven?

And doesn't virtually other religion say something approximately the same; that people are somehow flawed or bad and need to take specific actions, or to believe certain things, in order to achieve a desirable afterlife?

[pastorlenny.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure how assertions about actinos and consequences specifically differentiate religion from, say, financial planning or medicine. My doctor and accountant also say "If you do thing A, you will get positive outcome X" and "If you do thing B, you will get negative outcome Y."

But, despite the particular distortions of Chrstian doctrine thatcharacterize American evangelicalism, I'm not sure on what basis one would assert that Christianity is about earning entry into heaven by doing the right things or thinking the right things. There are certainly doctrines that encourage right action by linking it to good outcomes -- but, again, so does dentistry and Texas Hold 'Em.

[mrsilence.livejournal.com]

I don't insist that such "Do X to achieve Y outcome" behaviours are definitive of something activity being a religion or not, however I think it's safe to say that it is fairly common characteristic.

Myself not being a Christian, do you expect that I can, or will, go to heaven if I should die tomorrow? If not, why not and (briefly) what would need to happen before that became a possibility?

[pastorlenny.livejournal.com]

Again, "heaven when you die" doesn't seem to be the right outcome on which we should focus. And, anyway, it wouldn't be very orthodox at all for me to pretend that I know what your eternal fate might or might not be.

You see, the problem with this discussion is that people are already setting the context as "heaven when I die or not?" This itself is a symptom of a corrupt understanding of the person of the Christ.

[mrsilence.livejournal.com]

Well I hope you can appreciate that as a non-Christian, suspecting that I might do something to change my eternal fate from purgatory to paradise could be a highly motivating.

But it seems to me that the conclusion of this discussion is essentially that I shouldn't worry about going to Heaven at all, especially as it would seem that even being a non-Christian is not necessarily a barrier to getting into Heaven.

[pastorlenny.livejournal.com]

Yes, well if you're just looking for someone to sell you "fire insurance" for the afterlife, I would definitely not recommend talking to an authentic Christian. But the evangelicals will be happy to pray a little prayer with you and then tell you you're "saved." So go see them.

[geezer-also.livejournal.com]

These evangelicals you are speaking of, would they be what I consider neo-evangelicals? Perhaps I will ask this on your LJ tomorrow (church leaGUE SOFTBALL TONIGHT :d) and we can discuss that separately.

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

Can you be more specific about who you are talking about?

[pastorlenny.livejournal.com]

It seems rather plain: people who pray a prayer with you and then tell you you're "saved" as a result of praying that prayer.

[mrsilence.livejournal.com]

Oh I agree, that's exactly the kind of line you'll get out of Evangelicals. "Join our religion, do X, Y and Z and you'll enjoy an agreeable afterlife".

And I fully appreciate this is not your position on what the correct interpretation of the bible is.

But as you say, this is precisely what Evangelicals (and the religious leaders of many other common demoninations) often tell potential new and existing adherents. Which was basically the original point being made.

It may not be the strictly accurate interpretation of the bible, but it is very frequently heard. I personally have been to Christian religious meetings a grand total of 4 times in my life, plus 1 mandatory pre-marriage counselling session, which happened to be with my wife's minister, and each time I heard exactly this notion being put to adherents more or less explicitly and addressed to me as a non-Christian in particular.

I'm already quite certain that there's no reason to expect any kind of continuance of consciousness after death, so it's not really a concern for me personally, but it is a concern that these ministers of various religions don't feel any compunction about using the lure of heaven to draw in people who don't know any better.

[pastorlenny.livejournal.com]

Yes, well, all the meetings you've been to were probably in American evangelical congregations. "Evangelical" is not a denomination. It is a descriptive term for a certain movement within Protestantism.

I do believe there is an afterlife, by the way -- and I hope to experience the upside of it. I am hopeful about your place there as well.

[fizzyland.livejournal.com]

Well when dentistry or Texas Hold'Em start making claims about the eternal fate of the soul, get back to me.

[pastorlenny.livejournal.com]

If there is no afterlife, then the promises Texas Hold'Em makes are pretty potent.

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

Repentance through accept Jesus as your savior.

[the-rukh.livejournal.com]

It's not nearly as cut and dried nor heterogeneous as that. Many flavors of Christianity claim that original sin was absolved by the actions of Jesus. The followers of Jesus will go to heaven, and those who create the greatest sin, denying him, go to hell. Eastern christianity also does not believe that the sins of Adam affect all of humanity, just adam. mormons also believe that people will be punished for their own sins.

[malasadas.livejournal.com]

You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in a land war in Asia" - but only slightly less well-known is this: "Never go against pastorlenny when theology is on the line!"

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

I'll hear him out.

[fizzyland.livejournal.com]

What's a little iocane powder between friends?

[the-rukh.livejournal.com]

though he's wrong in this case- assuming that Christianity has one heterogeneous belief on this and that no flavors of Christianity believe this.

[malasadas.livejournal.com]

I was referring more to the predictable endless wall of questions.

[pastorlenny.livejournal.com]

I don't see how Christianity posits anything of the kind.