(no subject)

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

I do not know the crowd here as well as some others, so I ask this in innocence:

Is anyone here fool enough to support the statement: "America is the best country on earth"
I ask because so many pundits say so without ever *actually* justifying it. So I wanna open up this as a conversation.

I believe America is an OK place--it's got good things and bad things--and frankly, I do not know how to rank it in the world. It seems amazingly self-centered and arrogant to say things like: "America is the greatest gift God ever gave to man on the face of the planet."

It doesn't even sound slightly patriotic.

"True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else."
- Clarence Darrow

As a sidenote/secondary question:

Where do you think the line should be between church and state?

The Americans in the audience can feel free to ignore the first amendment, since I am asking *you* what *you* think, not what you think the 1st amendment permits/allows.

Comments

[malasadas.livejournal.com]

I think I only post anymore in the hope of being "daily quoted".

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

??

I don't follow.
I post in hopes of discussing with people.

[debergerac.livejournal.com]

this comment alone is daily quote-worthy.

if only i had the say so.

[weswilson]

I am fool enough to do so.

If one were to judge things on a multi-axis measurement, with the following axes being key:
1) Freedom
2) Security
3) Financial Stability
4) Exposure to Hostile Forces
5) Level of Government Oppression
6) Self-Determination

then yes... absolutely, I'd say we are the best nation on earth.

As for global responsibility, international respectability, and long-term survivability, I'd say those are pulls against us that don't affect most people in the short run.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

How far back do you think this judgment goes?

Surely you admit that in 1950 there was a significant portion of Americans who severely lacked civil rights; when did this "best nation on earth" title become ours? I don't need an exact day (tho that wouldn't be bad) but a rough time frame would be nice.

How come things like life expectancy or literacy don't make your list?
How come the 45,000 dead each year because of our messed up healthcare system don't make your list?

I won't deny we are not the worst nation on earth--but can you really justify why America is better than England or France or Australia--even if we use *only* your criteria (which I am not sure are a sufficient list, but OK)

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

Hubris is a bad thing.

It is important for people to be realistic.

I can be patriotic and not think the US is the best country on earth. Indeed, a patriot should not wear rose-colored glasses when examining his own country--for that is dishonest. We should, especially if we strive to in fact be the best country on earth, be as honest as we can be.

Dishonesty is bad. I hope I don't need to explain why.

[pastorlenny.livejournal.com]

Italy is actually to best country on earth. Fact.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

"Italy is actually to best country..."

You are slipping.

"America is the best country on earth"

[chipuni.livejournal.com]

I admit: I like it better than any other country I've visited.

But I also admit to wanting to bring good ideas from every other country to the U.S....

Re: "America is the best country on earth"

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

How many countries is that?

[prader.livejournal.com]

Is anyone here fool enough to support the statement: "America is the best country on earth"

Well, since you put it that way- sure!

Kidding.

I've only been to like 7-10 other countries, but, what I think can be said about the U.S. is that it had maybe the most potential to be a great or perhaps even the greatest nation- however we seem to be constantly plagued by divisiveness, immaturity, and not learning from the painful lessons other nations have learned for us.

Where do you think the line should be between church and state?

It should be a non-issue.

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

A country as excitingly diverse as the US is surely going to experience divisions, immaturity etc. The really important thing is, is it sustainable after the line is drawn and everything is summed up. I think the US still is. But there are always dangers to sustainability. And these mostly come from within.

[mrbogey.livejournal.com]

America probably isn't the best nation on Earth. But you're free to leave it to go live in the best nation on Earth.

That counts for a lot.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

That is true of many, many countries.

[sgiffy.livejournal.com]

Best is pretty subjective. I mean I think its the best based on my own criteria and having visited about 25 other ones and learned about many more than that. But then I also think my city and state are the best too.

I think the US has a good, but not perfect public/private mix, I think we have strong protections for individual rights, and I like that I have near zero fear of invasion. Now that does not mean I don't think other countries do some things better. We could learn a lot on issues of public safety(though we have some unique factors that make crime more a problem here). Same with say drug policy, education, and health care.

I also don't fault people for thinking their own countries is 'the best'. Again this is pretty much an entirely subjective measure.

Where do you think the line should be between church and state?

Churches should be completely free, people should be able to freely express their views, and to vote based on them. However the state should not enforce or support a religion and their should not be laws that are based solely on religious edicts. The devil is in the detail here, but for example helping poor people is both religious and secular and therefor fine for the state to do, preventing people from working on Sunday is not.

I also don't much care for things like "In god we trust" but they are minor annoyances.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

I believe the USA got away with genocide and repeated wars of aggression against rival powers to get to where it is and had this occurred in the 20th Century the USA would be as fondly liked/remembered as the Imperial Russians.

The USA is also a global hegemonic empire, albeit it prefers indirect rule to the direct rule favored by the UK. No such hegemony is ever good for anyone, whether the hegemon on the peoples it rules. To be certain there is less danger of war under the US brand of hegemony, but the US brand of hegemony is also as brutal and destructive as the British one was. Or the Achaemenids, to take it back to the first such hyperpower.

The USA is undoubtedly possessing of power any previous empire would have literally killed carload lots for, but the most powerful country in the world is not necessarily the most moral or the "best" country in the world.

And as far as the line between church and state, they should be separate.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

I also believe that there is no such thing as a best country, only the least of various shades of evil. And I believe the USA for the present is indisputably the least shade of evil present in a hegemonic power. The USA has been able to get away with much less in its wars in Iraq and Afghanistan than the UK was with the Opium Wars, for instance.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

Wow.

[the-rukh.livejournal.com]

Someone speaking my language.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

Ever notice that in every movie he is in, aside from Iron Man, he is essentially just reviving that role?

Even in The Contender where he plays the president, it's The Dude as President. It's really amusing.

[chessdev.livejournal.com]

First Question:
America is the best country on earth in terms of opportunity - but
we are NOT the best in everything we do, and in fact we do many things
wrong.

We are more than "OK" in that even our poor have a decent quality of life compared to the rest of the world. Where we fall is when people want all the benefits of our society but dont want to pay for it, or dont want spend on anyone outside themselves.


Church and State line?
I agree that church should not be taught in public schools or represented in the courthouses of the country.

But that viewpoint is more out a sense of fairness and equality than "anti-religion". To put it into perspective -- would Christians be "ok" if Hindu prayers were led in school? Would Catholics be alright if Islamic readings were done on Tuesdays and Thursdays in little Billy's class?

NO? Well, then why should everyone else be alright with only 1 religious viewpoint being taught? (and NO, America is not a "Christian Nation" since we do not recognize or appoint religious leaders in our government structure).

[anfalicious.livejournal.com]

I'd say people who live in countries with free tertiary education have a far greater access to opportunity, and your poor are poorer than the poor of many other nations.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

Yup, Democracy was totally proven to be our system in the presidential election of 2000.

Our peaceful nation has killed how many Iraqi civilians in the past few years?

Why is socialism bad?

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

So if an elected official wants to introduce a bill that mandates all public schools post a copy of the 10 commandments in all classrooms....is that OK?

[consortofvenus.livejournal.com]

I think it's the best place on Earth because it's so interesting and even somewhat diverse. It's also one of the freest places. You might disagree based upon your subjective feelings regarding the US, but you asked for subjective reactions from us and others express their feelings as you quoted. I'm Canadian; I do not see how I am being self-centred or arrogant in saying that.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

So you are Canadian and you think the US is the best place on earth?
I imagine that makes you a small minority of Canadians--but I could be way off.

Yes, America has more freedom than some places, and that is good.
I do wonder why there are places in this country where people can go to jail for years and years for possession of small amounts of marijuana; why gays cannot marry; why 12% of people in Pennsylvania *admitted* that race was an issue in the 2008 election; why certain people attempt to ban atheists from holding certain public office; why there's so much violence; why we have 2 million+ people in prison; why were there lynchings the day after Obama beat McCain?

These sorts of things trouble me and make me disbelieve that we are the best in the world; I admit that I don't have a "best in the world" to replace America with--but that is because I *know and admit* that I do not have enough information about all the countries in the world to make such a statement.

Too many people make statements that they do not have justification for. Sorry for wanting to make people think before they speak; my bad.

Which do you think is the best country?

[readherring.livejournal.com]

Do you have to be so negative about this? The only person likely to say, "America is the greatest gift God ever gave to man on the face of the planet" is Stephen Colbert. Nobody else has said that. Pretending that your opposition said something silly, then beating on the fictional argument is a Bill O'Reilly/Sean Hannity trick. C'mon man, you can do better than that.

Is America the best country? It depends on your definition of 'best'. No country is perfect, but it sounds like you have some issues with America. Out of curiosity, what country do you like best, and why?

There are a lot of things that I like about many other countries, but I know that this is the country for me. My mix of likes and needs best matches America, so for me, this is the best place. There are things that I don't like, but I've had a long think about all of the positives that America offers and all of the things we do well, and that has made me a patriot. You would be doing yourself a favor if you did the same. There's no sense in being miserable in your own home, mate.

Oh, and there is, in fact nobody here fool enough to support the statement, "America is the best country on earth", because earth, in that context, is spelled with a capital "E".

Re: Which do you think is the best country?

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

"The only person likely to say, "America is the greatest gift God ever gave to man on the face of the planet" is Stephen Colbert"

Stephen Colbert did say that, but only because he was mocking Sean Hannity. He said it; over and over again. So, yeah....this is no trick, those were his words.

[anfalicious.livejournal.com]

America sounds great, provided you're not poor. But if you're poor it seems that you are destined to be ever sick, hungry and uneducated. Not to mention how at risk you are of dying a violent death in the US. Indeed, out of what we call the "first world", it is the last place I would want to live.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

Part of the American myth that poor people are poor because they deserve it--they aren't working hard enough, or some shit.

Now, that's a myth, but so the story goes.

Hm...do you mind: where do you live?

[meus-ovatio.livejournal.com]

Hungary is the best country on Earth.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

Cool.
How so?

[abomvubuso.livejournal.com]

IMO the question is too vague. Its not your fault - no matter how much you specify it, it'll always be too vague, as it is an entirely subjective issue. What does "good country, better country, best country" mean really? An "OK place to live" sounds good, but there are so many opinions of whats an "OK" place as the number of people in the world. For me a good place to live is a place where you feel relatively secure and accomplished, where you can realise your potential and where you can feel at home. And -surprise- i feel this way where i am now - in a country which has been labeled the cradle of crime!

"An OK place". Is America such a place? On a personal, daily basis, certainly yes. I havent lived there for more than a couple of weeks (twice) but from the little that i've seen, i could say its a fairly good place to live.

Now, about the political side of the question, there's a huge variety of opinions, and quite expectedly. But, does politics relate to daily life that much? Not really (unless you live under a dictatorship of course).

So i'm afraid i cannot answer the question in a straightforward and unambiguous way, but i admit i'm leaning towards "yes, its a fine place but prolly not THE best".

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

As the community is mainly dominated by Americans, and since every person is more probable to try to boast rather than rant, I'm guessing this thread is bound to become a massive group patriotic masturbation.

(Reads on)...

Oh wait... I'm pleasantly surprised by the affinity to critical thinking of many people here. I might re-consider my general opinion about Americans... one day. :-P

[mintogrubb.livejournal.com]

I got this on the net, but would love to see the full table

http://www.footloosemoose.com/sam_wp/?p=204

Oh, come on now, we all know....

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

...the UN is a bunch of liars.

(that was actually said to me when I was discussing American healthcare and the guy pulled out: "We have the best healthcare in the world" to which I countered "So why does the UN put us at 37th best in the world?" "The UN lies.")

[reflaxion.livejournal.com]

America WAS the best country on Earth. Then a bunch of them caught up to us, and now some of them are passing us, and we're shutting our eyes very tightly and pretending we're still the only bastion of Freedom™ and Democracy™ in a world full of what must otherwise be communist totalitarian dictatorships. We still do SOME things better than everyone else, and America certainly is a GREAT place to live, but we certainly aren't at the top of the hill anymore.

[anfalicious.livejournal.com]

You realise Fiji is a shithole currently run by a military dictator?