Neil, really?
5/12/18 10:00![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
mahnmut posting in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png){kind=small}
talkpoliticsNeil deGrasse Tyson and the Persistence of the Bad Male Apology
Advocates for survivors of sexual assault say statements like Tyson's are rarely about apologizing to alleged victims.
I used to think he's all for critical thought and all that stuff, and he may well still be - but his response to all this kerfuffle doesn't strike me as particularly sensitive to what #MeToo is really about. It's about inter-gender power dynamic (he was the boss of the woman he invited to his room after all) - not the presence or lack of a good sense of humor as some are making this sound.
Let's make something very clear. Responses like, "But how did she remember that I did all that stuff to her if she was really drugged?" are NOT helping.
Naturally, the usual question would come up again, "But why are they bringing this up NOW?" Well, guess what. The spirit of our time has become such that it has allowed women who've been victims of sexual harassment that's been prevalent for years and decades, and that has a lot to do with the above-mentioned inter-gender power dynamic, to finally feel comfortable enough to come out and speak. And we shouldn't underestimate the avalanche effect either, e.g. when one woman speaks and others see that she's getting support in response rather than the usual hush-hush and mansplaining, they also decide to come out in turn. And so it goes on. That's how culture tends to change, folks.
And guys like NdGT, as much as we love him for all he's done to popularize science and critical thought, should recognize this, instead of issuing half-assed, too-little-too-late apologies, or even worse, doubling down on those they may or may not have slighted.
Note: I'm saying "may not have". Because, if we're to remain true to the principles of critical thought that he professes (and the legal system too), the Innocent Until Proven Guilty premise should have precedence. Let's hear all sides of the story, and try to understand them, while refraining from judging. Obviously, it's one's word against another's at this point, so no real legal action could be taken. But there's much more beyond that - public perception, personal credibility and people's belief in a person's integrity that could affect their career and their standing in society - and yes, character assassination, too. That can be a factor. Let's take all this into account before hasting to judge any side. But let's also assume that if a number of women have decided to come out and speak, there must be some substance and truth to what they have to say.
And, Neil, next time you decide to reach under a woman's sleeveless blouse to find where she has tatooed Pluto, despite all your curiosity, please, PLEASE think twice and ask for permission first. Better yet, ask her if it's approriate if she did it herself. It can't be that hard for a guy like yourself, can it?
Advocates for survivors of sexual assault say statements like Tyson's are rarely about apologizing to alleged victims.
I used to think he's all for critical thought and all that stuff, and he may well still be - but his response to all this kerfuffle doesn't strike me as particularly sensitive to what #MeToo is really about. It's about inter-gender power dynamic (he was the boss of the woman he invited to his room after all) - not the presence or lack of a good sense of humor as some are making this sound.
Let's make something very clear. Responses like, "But how did she remember that I did all that stuff to her if she was really drugged?" are NOT helping.
Naturally, the usual question would come up again, "But why are they bringing this up NOW?" Well, guess what. The spirit of our time has become such that it has allowed women who've been victims of sexual harassment that's been prevalent for years and decades, and that has a lot to do with the above-mentioned inter-gender power dynamic, to finally feel comfortable enough to come out and speak. And we shouldn't underestimate the avalanche effect either, e.g. when one woman speaks and others see that she's getting support in response rather than the usual hush-hush and mansplaining, they also decide to come out in turn. And so it goes on. That's how culture tends to change, folks.
And guys like NdGT, as much as we love him for all he's done to popularize science and critical thought, should recognize this, instead of issuing half-assed, too-little-too-late apologies, or even worse, doubling down on those they may or may not have slighted.
Note: I'm saying "may not have". Because, if we're to remain true to the principles of critical thought that he professes (and the legal system too), the Innocent Until Proven Guilty premise should have precedence. Let's hear all sides of the story, and try to understand them, while refraining from judging. Obviously, it's one's word against another's at this point, so no real legal action could be taken. But there's much more beyond that - public perception, personal credibility and people's belief in a person's integrity that could affect their career and their standing in society - and yes, character assassination, too. That can be a factor. Let's take all this into account before hasting to judge any side. But let's also assume that if a number of women have decided to come out and speak, there must be some substance and truth to what they have to say.
And, Neil, next time you decide to reach under a woman's sleeveless blouse to find where she has tatooed Pluto, despite all your curiosity, please, PLEASE think twice and ask for permission first. Better yet, ask her if it's approriate if she did it herself. It can't be that hard for a guy like yourself, can it?
(no subject)
Date: 5/12/18 08:02 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 6/12/18 09:41 (UTC)"Every 'male apology' is really a 'man-splaination' of misogynistic culture, that makes women feel shame for feeling uncomfortable by unwanted sexual behavior," Toni Van Pelt, the president of the National Organization of Women, wrote in an email. "Brave women have come forward to tell their truth and the impact their experience has had on their careers and lives. We must believe women."
I get it. A woman I don't know and never met felt uncomfortable and threatened by a man I respect as an advocate for science, but also do not know and have never met. I believe her, no problem. Men - especially men with some fame and power - can behave in dumbass ways. Partly because they need to learn how to behave just as every man must learn, partly because they're surrounded by tempting opportunities to exploit their power, and partly because they sometimes must tread much more carefully due to a higher level of scrutiny or sensitivity. Tyson was an idiot? More than once? I can definitely believe it. Did he learn from each mistake? Maybe. If he wasn't perceptive enough at the time to realize his mistake then probably not. Three cheers for women speaking up, in the moment, or even after the moment, so men can get it through their thick heads that social interaction is more complicated than they believe.
Nevertheless, I find that quotation interesting because it assumes no difference between an apology made in private, and one made in a medium more public than any other medium in human history and meant to be read by everyone in the world with the possible exception of the victim.
What do you, and by you I mean everyone who isn't the victim, expect to see in a public statement from the accused? Do you feel like you personally should be apologized to, for having the spotless image of your hero marred by his own bad behavior? Do you feel like you deserve an explanation? Do you feel like having the day's Two Minute Hate, and now it's Neil's turn on the projector? The specifics don't actually matter, since any of these is enough to push the story further down the social media river of shit, and on to the next consumer.
I suspect that what we here in talkpolitics want is a thorough, original, genuine, heartfelt public apology, containing no mitigation or defense, and segueing into a stirring encouragement for other accused people to step in front of the largest megaphone possible to air the sexual indignities and abuses they've suffered, and name names, and continue this important movement. That would be nice.
But we didn't get that, so on the story goes, down the river.
Eventually it will reach people who will declare that Neil just ain't qualified to exist in public life any more, and should go home, lock his doors, draw his shades, and never be heard from again, the end.
(no subject)
Date: 6/12/18 09:52 (UTC)In the meantime, character assassination should stop. It removes the focus from the real problem, and unnecessarily focuses on destroying people's credibility. Neil shouldn't disappear from public life, because in his field, he's still got a lot to contribute.
(no subject)
Date: 6/12/18 10:27 (UTC)Tyson is an educator who speaks to young people. THINK OF THE CHILDREN
(no subject)
Date: 6/12/18 11:30 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 6/12/18 11:32 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 7/12/18 12:29 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 7/12/18 14:26 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 6/12/18 12:37 (UTC)For the case where he is alleged to have drugged and raped a woman, if he didn't do it, I'm not going to judge him for defending himself vigorously. Of course, there's really no way for us to know if he did it or not.
(no subject)
Date: 6/12/18 09:54 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 6/12/18 10:17 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 6/12/18 11:35 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 6/12/18 14:16 (UTC)I don't know about SJW's, but IMHO it is still acceptable to make an overt and non-creepy (and moreover direct) invitation to share the pleasures of ones bed: normally I suppose it's just before you fall into each other's arms, and are using it as confirmation of intent, but even so...
In my youth I was made aware that one of the mistakes I couldn't make was taking a no for a yes. But power relationships mean that someone higher up the food chain's idle wishes have an extra emphasis. What do you do? It seems male privilege corrupts all but those brought up in matriarchal environments (some Irish Catholic mothers can do that for you without problem) and even then the chaps are sulky passive-aggressive types one stage away from incel.
I guess it's almost all human heterosexual carriers of the deficient "Y" chromosome. Obvious and honourable exceptions to folk on here, of course.
If Tyson had only suffixed the question with: "But you are allowed to say no, and tell me to go to blazes too" it may have been less creepy. I don't know what to think about the other allegations. They don't seem to be about stepping over the mark, they seem much more cut and dried in their criminality, and need to be tried on that basis.