It's all pretty fucked up, isn't it?

[mahnmut]

So some black antifa folks resorted to violence against peaceful right-wing protests the other day.

It's a fucked up situation, isn't it? The whole cycle of violence is pretty much fucked up. Trump's failure to condemn right-wing violence is fucked up. As is the liberal media's ignoration of their own side resorting to violence, too. Everyone is hypocritical in this situation, and there are huge stains on... wait for it... *GASP!* both sides. Oh my.

I don't care which "side" is better or worse than the other. The fact is, the can of worms has been opened now. And this doesn't seem likely to get out of the vicious spiral.

By the way, I was amused by statements like, "we condemn violence no matter which side does it, because violence has no place in America". Excuse me? Why don't you tell that to the native people? Or to the Irish? Or the Chinese who built all those railroads? Or the blacks who were brought there in chains? Or the Swedes who came on indenture, or the Japanese who were held in concentration camps?

The US was conceived in violence, it expanded with violence, it exported violence, and it thrives on violence. Guns, shootings and violence are at the very core of its society. Violence has always been there, it'll continue to be there, with or without Trump, the alt-right, the alt-left or whatever. No, we haven't seen the last of it, and we won't see it any time soon. Because violence is part of the very definition of what IS America.

Comments

[kiaa]

Hypocrisy in politics is so fascinating. It's almost like theater on steroids.

[garote]

Is this what you're talking about?

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/08/28/us/california-today-clashes-again-in-berkeley.html?referer=

[mahnmut]

Yup.

[garote]

Well hey, at least it wasn't a riot over something even more ridiculous like, say, Mardi Gras... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Mardi_Gras_riot
So that's progress right?

But seriously. I was at the Berkeley demonstration. It was mostly a huge party, and those that did scuffle were no more violent than the average (us-style) football game. (And many of them were wearing as much padding as footballers anyway.)

I wouldn't disagree that the US was formed in violence and plays a dominant role in enabling violence around the world, either through religious intolerance or the more direct method of selling arms. But seriously, if these protests are getting your pants in a twist, you need to take a hard look at your own choices of news consumption, and/or what you're reading between the lines that just isn't there. To many Berkeley people, a protest is just a good reason to get out in the fresh air and get some aerobic exercise, and spend some time with their neighbors. Most of the people swelling its ranks do not give a shit how it is perceived in some other country; this is still their community and that takes precedence for them.

But sure, perhaps it shouldn't. Perhaps we should all be always considering our possible perceptions on the world stage in everything we do, here in Berkeley. That would probably - but only probably - draw less weird ire from shitty presidents and judgmental internet denizens. ... But I doubt it.

I'm pretty sure that no matter what we did, our city outing would be framed, editorialized, wrapped in banners ads and paywalls, and served up to you for your outrage-fueled enjoyment. I guarantee you that if you were here, standing in the crowd, you would discover it is really, really not the thing you've been hearing and reading about. You've been hearing and reading mostly an illusion.

And that should lead you to the question: Why is this being reframed, and by whom, and for what ends?

[abomvubuso]

Oh great. More ammo for more Trump tweets.

[oportet]

HOW CAN YOU SAY BOTH SIDES??? Ok, so maybe there is video and photographic evidence of violence from both sides, but....but it's not fair...Trump said it, it's wrong....RACISM! somethingPHOBIA!

[garote]

I think your sarcasm has done a 720-triple-backflip and fallen off the bar or something. :D

[asthfghl]

Which is why they're getting DailyQuoted.

[johnny9fingers]

Of course they are all equivalent evils if you ignore context. One violent action is equally bad as another when decontextualised.

But the context of the history of American racial politics rather changes that. When the "Alt-left' have a hundred year history of stringing up folk who looked at someone the wrong way, I may just possibly agree with you. As is, no. And IMHO laughably and demonstrably no.

And I'm not actually left-wing, being elitist, etc. But I think it to be true that justice and fairness require context to be either just, or fair.

Spot on about the born in violence thing. But there I think you will find the context is Human, not just American. The founding epics of human written culture are all about war: Gilgamesh, the Iliad, the Mahabharata, the Pentateuch, and even the Ulster Cycle. Until we get to Gautama, we don't even have a counter narrative. Just to give some ...er, um, context. Mind you, [when it comes to violence] the Americans are especially good at it, whereas a century before it was the British, French, and Germans.

But alongside being born in violence, we are also all born in ignorance; and education and wisdom are the antidotes to ignorance and are also things which cultures accrete over time. And wisdom enables us to escape the shackles of our propensity to violence, and our wish for our opinion to triumph despite the facts.

Over here, in the name of balance, the Beeb lets Lord Lawson witter on in his climate-change denialism. The rest of us can't see the balance actually. Some things are in no way equivalent, unless you cherry-pick your data, and are happy to abstract actions from context. Or are happy to have the debate framed in that fashion by folk who have an agenda, I suppose.

[mahnmut]

Well, my dad used to be part of the anti-apartheid movement here in SA. They were technically terrorists. Because they used to attack state institutions and damage the regime's infrastructure in an attempt to disrupt the regime.

Their context: they wanted to remove an oppressive regime. Their means: disrupting infrastructure. Verdict: they were terrorists.
ISIS' context: they want to establish an oppressive regime. Their means: killing innocent people. Verdict: terrorists again.

Which of these is the real terrorist, though?

[halialkers]

To be perfectly crude, what did talking to the original model Nazis (if the people in Charlottesville carry swastikas and conduct Nuremberg-style rallies they're literally wearing the fucking term so it applies) do? It got 50 million dead. And that was a world unlike the present one without weapons that are capable at maximum levels of literally breaking continents.

Had the anti-Nazis in the Weimar era been more efficient at cold-bloodedly suppressing the Nazis, or Right Wing paramilitaries in general, none of that would have ever happened.

And you're right to be amused by that. The USA is an empire like all the rest, forged in blood and iron and fire. The difference is like the British we pretend we're not and because we shape the world so much too many people of the present believe our lies and there aren't really people with alternative narratives able to spread them at equal levels.

[airiefairie]

[abomvubuso]

Wait, I thought America wasn't an empire? I've had at least half a dozen encounters with Americans who've resisted to their country being qualified as an empire. *confused* (no, not really)

[airiefairie]

Antifa... Why does it somehow remind me of Queen Latifa? =)

[mahnmut]

Because they're funky like that?

[garote]

Because they're both from New Jersey?

the

[0rder]

I'm not sure which events you're talking about here, but first thing: let's not call them "peaceful right-wing protests." If they're like what happened in Charlottesville, we're not merely talking about conservatives organizing in favor of their preferred policies. We're talking about a coordinated effort to re-assert white supremacist fascism in the United States. They're not a legitimate part of our political spectrum.

Second thing: "black antifa?" Why is the race relevant, here?

Characterizing this as a "cycle of violence" is also a bit of mistake. Most of the protests and counter-protests have been peaceful. Most of the counter-protesting has been very intentionally peaceful. To be sure, there are people coming to these things wanting to fight - look to the "militias" coming in full military gear to "protect history" - but we're not talking about a tit-for-tat cycle of escalation where violence is being met with violence.

It's worth pointing out, too, that this whole "antifa is violent" line is being promoted heavily in recent days by known Russian bots. I'm not saying that you're actively conspiring to promote Russian interests, but you might take a step back from your information sources re-assess.

While Americans certainly can't disavow having a history of violence, I'm not sure that's anything other than what we inherited from our European founders and share with our modern-day cousins. From my perspective, the only nations in the world that have properly come to terms with their violent pasts are maybe the Germans and Japanese.

Re: the

[johnny9fingers]

Pretty much my take on it. But as for the Russian bots some of us just factor that in as another variable and it becomes noise we filter out of the signal, if you catch my drift. And sometimes folk don't take too kindly when you point out that their filters aren't working properly.

Pretty much about Germany and Japan... though revisionism is encroaching even in those two.

As an aside, in Blighty, in the old days during the cold war, a number of the far-right quasi-military organisations were covertly funded by our Intelligence services as last-ditch terrorist organisations operating against a communist overrun Britain. This left an unfortunate legacy of connections and back doors which it now seems is being exploited and manipulated by external intel services. The internet changed all of the rules governing this stuff, and we in the West, with our laissez-faire attitudes and small government fetishes have underfunded our intelligence services for years. No wonder the oppos got the drop on us. All it needed was for Russia to reposition itself as the closest thing to a Modernist Fascist state du jour, and all those on the right worldwide were duty-bound to come running. It is amusing to see Russian bots and Stormfront exiles arguing the same points.

I mean, you have to admire Uncle Vlad. He plays the game magnificently. Just wondering what he will do now, when America is gazing inward? And how many moves down the line we have to wait to see just what it was he started when the eyes of the world were elsewhere?

Re: the

[garote]

The Antifa group at the Berkeley rally was mostly white. But, their "uniform" is all-black.

[fridi]

Wow. 100+ comments, and most of them going to huge lengths to convince us that "this thing is not like that other thing", and that speech is not entirely free - not unless it agrees with our standards for "truth".

Well done, folks.

[johnny9fingers]

it's part of the philosophical problem of language and meaning, and how we frame our ideals in language, and then how those interact with governance. Pretty much one of the crucial axioms of political debate.

And like Hilbert's program of complete mathematics, when Godel comes along, von Neumann says "It's all over" and we realise that some things are not provable, but they may be true.

Endless argument. endless fun.

[0rder]

Well, being opposed to fascism isn't the same as being an actual fascist; and promoting ideologies that suppress the truth or promote the interests of particular racial groups to the detriment of others isn't as worthy of protection as promoting ideologies that promote the truth or call for tolerance. Is it?

In American politics, the only ones with a vested interest in drawing an equivalence between the "two sides" and promoting so-called "free speech" are those who want to legitimize the racists and fascists and bring them into the mainstream. It's also evident that the Russians seeking to undermine American stability and power are lending their assistance to that effort. So it seems inevitable that drawing the same exact kind of equivalence here - as the OP does - is likely to elicit a lively debate.

[asthfghl]

Gee, 120 comments. First time 100+ since the LJ->DW migration.