Affirmative Action In School?

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

Hey, my beloved procrastinators! It's been a while since we had our last installment of ridiculously over-simplified and unbearably polarized hypothetical situations, inspired by the NationStates online game - you know, that place where you're the benevolent ruler of your own fictional state, which you're completely free to shape as you please, based on the stupid choices you make in situations like the below presented. Last time when we delved into the depths of True Democracy(tm), and the bulk of you guys sided with Ms Parke, an overworked bureaucrat who has had enough of all those bills containing dozens of unrelated riders. Well, now the situation I'm presenting to your attention is not too different from that case, except this time the focus will be on affirmative action in schools.

The Issue
After minority student Akira Ruff was refused admission to a traditional, prestigious college, civil rights activists, conservatives, and teachers are up in arms about affirmative action and ethnic equality in education.

The Debate
1. "I think you'll find there's actually no problem here," observes conservative speaker and hair care product salesperson Zeke Utopia. "A student wants to go to a particular school, but lacks the grades. Clearly, he should have studied harder in school. But oh, because he's a so-called minority, it's everyone else's fault. I'm sorry, but the system is working perfectly well: What gets you into a good school is merit alone. Or, failing that, a generous donation."

2. "Are you blind, or do you simply refuse to see?" thunders civil-rights activist, former TV commentator and unabashed publicity speaker Lauren de Castro. "Oh yes, it's all perfectly equal, if we ignore the fact that this poor boy was stacking shelves to pay for textbooks in a falling-down school while the nice rich boys were enjoying private tutoring! Affirmative action is needed to balance out the very real disadvantages that many students grow up with! And there's no better way to identify that disadvantage than with broad, sweeping demographics!"

3. "I think you're both loony," says Bharatendu de Groot, professor of liberal arts at The Insert Country Name National University. "In my humble opinion, the solution is simple: make college education free to all. Why turn away anyone? Throw open the gates and make college education available to every citizen of Insert Country Name, regardless of their economic status, grades, or work ethic!"

The legislature of Insert Country Name is preparing to adopt a decision.

[Poll #2017408]

Of course, those who are already familiar with how this game is played, would already know that the options are so extreme for a reason.

Comments

[leo-sosnine.livejournal.com]

I assume that Mr. de Groot has expressed his willingness to work for free full time teaching those students and spend his spare time trying to raise funds to run his college.

[sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com]

A similar thought crossed my mind as well.

[luvdovz.livejournal.com]

Most Nordic countries have free universal public education, Denmark being one notable example - and they all consistently rate among the top in terms of education quality and literacy. Certainly higher than the US.

Perhaps you should try abandoning the partisanship-induced simplistic generalizations and look at the issue from a more impartial standpoint. If possible at all, that is.

[ddstory.livejournal.com]

Yeah, well, on the other hand, isn't it so much cheaper, effort-wise, to concoct a mix of standard talking points and randomly throw them around, and pretend that this passes for some sort of "argument".

[leo-sosnine.livejournal.com]

Nordic countries have vast resources of oil and natural gas and relatively low number of residents so that allows their government to subsidize education without paying much attention to profitability. Another contributor is taxation that is in general higher in Europe compared to the US.

Perhaps you shouldn't advise me how I should think but stick to basic facts instead. If possible at all.

[luvdovz.livejournal.com]

Denmark, Finland, Sweden and Iceland have vast resources of oil? Who knew.

The oil and the population density is not the reason for the high efficiency of their education system. Try using basic logic to process the facts that are already readily available to you, as opposed to spewing platitudes. If possible.

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

Wait, so are you acknowledging saying that higher taxation means better results in education? Hmmm. That's an interesting shifting evolution in your initial position there.

[sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com]

Rather, "free education" isn't "free" the money to pay for teachers, administrators, and facilities has to come from somewhere be it tuition or taxes.

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

Semantic quibble aside, in Option 3, are students paying to the education institution for their education or not?

[sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com]

It's hardly a quibble. It's the crux of the whole left v right divide.

...and the answer to your question is yes.

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

Nope, the crux of the issue here is whether the expenses for higher education should be spread and shared among the entire population, or they should be privatized to the point where only those who can afford it can get higher education. That's the entire debate. No one is arguing that things like education should come for free. I don't know what other debate you might imagine to be having.

[sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com]

No one is arguing that things like education should come for free.

That is exactly what is being argued.

Pointing out that "Free" education still has to be paid for, be it through national resources like oil and gas or through taxation is not "an interesting shifting evolution" in the position that the money has to come from somewhere, it is an affirmation.

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

No it isn't. The debate is where the resource for providing that service should be coming from: directly from the pockets of those who want to use it, or in a solidary funding by the whole society. That's the divide between conservatism and liberalism as far as taxation and public services are concerned.

Those arguing that stuff should come for free are irrelevant to this debate.

[sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com]

Doesn't that invalidate your earlier critique?

Those arguing that stuff should come for free are irrelevant to this debate.

Those arguing that stuff should come for free are the ones voting for #3 while criticizing leo_sosnine for pointing out something that should be obvious.

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

Those voting for #3 are those who believe the whole society should be sharing the expenses for your education. Those voting for #1 are those who believe you alone should be paying for your education. If you believe those voting for #3 think that public services should be coming without taxation, then you're basically assuming they're all idiots.

[nairiporter.livejournal.com]

*I* have voted for #3, and I am not arguing that stuff should come for free.

I still do believe an education system that is fully funded from taxes and where anyone could have education without fees as long as they pass the entry exams, is viable, and could be highly efficient. It's not like there already aren't enough examples of that (see: higher education in the Nordic countries).

[garote]

What's interesting to me is that you point out the barrier to entry "as long as they pass the entry exams".

There is no indication anywhere in the above scenario of whether "minority student Akira Ruff" did - or even could potentially - pass the entry exams, given his rough-and-tumble history "stacking shelves to pay for textbooks in a falling-down school".

Making all upper education free only eliminates the possibility of going into debt for tuition costs ... but not going into debt for housing and food while keeping free time to attend classes, and not growing up in a poor community that cannot adequately prepare students to pass entry exams. There is still a very obvious bias towards the affluent. Good luck eliminating that.

Would more people attend a college if all tuition was "free"? Hell yes. Would it represent a move towards a more equal playing field? I think so, as long as we didn't insist that ALL higher education be government-subsidized ONLY. (That would lead to poisonous legislative loopholes carved by the affluent.)

This is pretty much how the California community-college system works, except that Prop 13 has been undermining it for many years now.

[nairiporter.livejournal.com]

There is still a very obvious bias towards the affluent

That is why there is an option #2. But we weren't discussing option #2 here, were we?

[garote]

No, we weren't. We were discussing option 3.

"Throw open the gates and make college education available to every citizen of Insert Country Name, regardless of their economic status, grades, or work ethic!"

Your rider of "as long as they pass the entry exams" is a departure from option 3.

[nairiporter.livejournal.com]

OK.

Anything else?

[mikeyxw.livejournal.com]

Well, that part is typically glossed over by those who are asking for free stuff, so it's a fair point. The question is really: should the cost of education be borne by the individual who is going to benefit most from it, which will exclude a lot of people from educational opportunities, or should it be paid for by society as a whole, which means that quite a few people who never had the opportunities or talent to get a degree will be subsidizing the education of the future upper class?

Neither seems like the slam dunk that "free education" would be.

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

You're basically describing exactly what I said above.

that part is typically glossed over by those who are asking for free stuff

Don't care about them, since they're irrelevant to this debate.

[sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com]

There's a 4th option that really should be on there.

Make education level a "protected attribute" similar to race, gender, or religion. If you’re not allowed to ask a job candidate whether they’re gay, you’re not allowed to ask them whether they’re a college graduate or not because that would be illegal class-based discrimination.

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

Sounds good. This way, people with a 8th grade would be able to apply for rocket engineers. And no one would be able to turn them down.

[sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com]

Well yes that's the point. You'll find out who actually has the chops to be a rocket engineer pretty quick, and if they have the chops why should you care if they got the 2 years of post-modern lit required for a degree?

[johnny9fingers.livejournal.com]

May work for rocket science, but unlikely to work for medicine or the law.

[sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com]

Actually, I'm pretty sure it would. If someone somehow managed to make it through residency, or pass the bar without graduating I don't see why we shouldn't let them practice.

[luzribeiro.livejournal.com]

Because they be stealin' yer jerbs, mayhaps?

[sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com]

If I were a college administrator maybe.

The last thing the education establishment needs is another shit-bag dropout who thinks that they are qualified to design a computer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Inc.).

[policraticus.livejournal.com]

If they can do the work, if they pass the entrance tests with high enough marks, perform ably and have good recommendations, I don't really see the problem.

[sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com]

We have to keep the hobbits and high-school kids out of our industries. How else are we going to keep all those child development majors employed.

Edit:
Today I learned that auto correct will replace the word "Hobbyist" with "Hobbit"

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

There must be a reason that it does that!

[garote]

And while you're at it, make job history a "protected attribute" as well.
See how well your idea, or mine, is received by the business community.

Either one is a massive blow to the document commonly known as a "résumé" and will create a massive amount of inefficiency in hiring practices for .... no good reason at all, really. It would be the equivalent of "healing" a leg wound by amputating the leg.

[korean-guy-01.livejournal.com]

Since this is a prestigious college, the scenario doesn't make sense unless you know if Akira Ruff is Asian.

[sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com]

Well Akira is a common Japanese name so...

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

That professor sure looks and sounds crazy!