[identity profile] airiefairie.livejournal.com posting in [community profile] talkpolitics
We have probably all heard by now about the controversial decisions at the Copenhagen zoo to put down a giraffe and feed it to the lions in front of the visiting children, and to subsequently put down a few lion cubs because they were planning to introduce a new adult male lion to the zoo, and they were concerned that he would have killed the cubs anyway. People were naturally appalled. There were lots of discussions about animal rights, the treatment of animals in the zoos, etc. Even some satire.

Now there is a new story that I am sure is about to cause all hell breaking loose once more,

Bern zoo faces flak over second bear cub death

...And there is of course a pre-story to that:

Bern zoo under fire after bear eats baby cub

Another act of inhumane treatment of animals, I am sure many would argue. And they would be right, to a point. However, if we are to look at the problem a bit closer, we may begin to realise that there is more to those two stories than just that. Indeed, it seems the problem runs much deeper than most of the audience is probably suspecting. Because one or two cases like these could be possibly interpreted as incidental acts of cruelty and poor judgment/management - but when there is a wide-spread tendency, there must be a systematic flaw in the, well, system. And as it turns out, there really is:

How many healthy animals do zoos put down?

Apart from the side point that is being made in the article, namely that, while this problem tends to affect animals of almost all species, but only the "large and charismatic" ones tend to make the headlines, there is also the central part of the problem:

""We do it when it's necessary," [Copenhagen Zoo's Scientific Director] says. "If I should take an average over 10 years - it could be probably something like 20, 30 [per year]."

"That figure includes some smaller animals, not just the big "charismatic megafauna" that have the potential to make headline news. At the larger end of the scale, Copenhagen Zoo has put down leopards, tigers, lions, bears, antelopes and hippos in recent years, as well as the young giraffe, Marius."

And this is obviously not just in Denmark. The various breeding programmes around Europe include such necessary actions like the so called "management euthanisation", and not just of ill animals. The overall number is really staggering: 3-5 thousand annually. But why? What is causing this? Is it rampant mismanagement? Or something else?

Well, turns out the European zoo association (EAZA) has adopted a "breed and cull" policy, at least for a number of species, which often results in huge surpluses of animals that cannot be possibly accommodated by the international zoo system, no matter how much the exchange of animals is intensified between zoos.

In the meantime, most American zoos extensively use the practice of contraception to prevent such a surplus, and have thus been able to control their populations for the most part. The conclusion is inescapable: the two zoo systems (Europe and America) have adopted two very different approaches to population management, and the most reasonable way to decrease the probability of healthy animals being killed due to overpopulation or under controversial pretexts like in these recent cases, is to adopt the American approach. Otherwise the problem will not only stay, it will be getting more serious with time.

There is probably at least one positive effect from this recent stream of unpleasant news coming from around the European zoos. It is that these cases may have finally triggered a debate about the proper treatment of animals in an artificial environment that the European public should have probably had a very long time ago.

(no subject)

Date: 8/4/14 16:38 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] telemann.livejournal.com
Copenhagen Zoo has put down leopards, tigers, lions, bears, antelopes and hippos in recent years, as well as the young giraffe, Marius.

Ugh, that's just unbelievable.

Good post, so thank you for the write-up.

(no subject)

Date: 8/4/14 17:43 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] policraticus.livejournal.com
I am an American and I find the European stories neither inhumane nor unpleasant. Managing populations of captive animals might be one of e most typically human behaviors around. We can have an honest disagreement about whether the Danes had options beyond euthanizing the giraffe, but that is largely a matter of aesthetics. As for dissecting the remains and feeding it to lions, I find that entirely admirable. We regularly euthanize or slaughter tens of thousands of animals to both satisfy our economic needs and strengthen or propagate the other species. If we are going to keep animals in captivity or manage animals in the wild, controlling population will always be necessary.
Edited Date: 8/4/14 17:52 (UTC)

(no subject)

Date: 8/4/14 17:54 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ddstory.livejournal.com
Yep. It's totally admirable. No meat should go wasted! Utilization to the 100%! For a better and more efficient society!

(no subject)

Date: 8/4/14 18:07 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] policraticus.livejournal.com
What should they have done with the carcass? Who better to eat the giraffe than the giraffe's natural predator? If you want to argue that we shouldn't keep animals at all, that is fine. But once we have, we need to not shirk our broader responsibility.

(no subject)

Date: 8/4/14 18:42 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ddstory.livejournal.com
Oh no no, they should totally feed the giraffe's flesh to the lions; not only that, they should do it before the kids' eyes. It's the only way to teach them about the realities of life!

Oh wait... They already did?

(Warning, graphic image behind link (http://s.newsweek.com/sites/www.newsweek.com/files/styles/headline/public/2014/02/10/210giraffedenmark01.jpg)).

(no subject)

Date: 8/4/14 19:01 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] policraticus.livejournal.com
I'm not seeing why lions eating giraffes is somehow shocking. Or why anyone should be offended. Seriously. Your link is the biggest nothingburger in history. I don't know what they normally feed the lions, maybe horse or cow, maybe pigs, but whatever it is I guarantee you it was just as alive once as the giraffe. My cat brings me dead birds other small animals all the time. If he was the size of a lion he would, no doubt, bring me a gazelle or a baby giraffe. What are we supposed to be teaching our children about what lions eat? Don't children deserve to know that lions aren't vegans?

(no subject)

Date: 8/4/14 19:53 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ddstory.livejournal.com
Yes yes, really, why not bring those kids to a porn show? Sex is part of life as well, is it not? Hell, why not bring them to a public rape, that's part of life too. Maybe a shoot-out? I'm really not seeing why anyone should be offended. Don't children deserve to know and see all these things first-hand, after all? How else would they learn that people are not nicey-nicey all the time?

(no subject)

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Date: 8/4/14 20:14 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] telemann.livejournal.com
In that case maybe we should let the kiddies watch inmates get executed too? You know the cycle of life and death. That's certainly a valuable teaching experience for everyone. And who knows when school children may need to dress a dead giraffe, instead of just telling them what lions eat, versus showing them.

Don't children deserve to know that lions aren't vegans?

Heavens forbid they think that, and start getting some really crazy ideas!
But please no "graphic" sex education in our schools, because you know, priorities.

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Date: 9/4/14 01:21 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yes-justice.livejournal.com
They taught their children that people kill and chop up giraffes and feed the carcasses to captive lions. Maybe it will be a nice add on lesson for habitat destruction.

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Date: 8/4/14 21:10 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] aelf.livejournal.com
My understanding was that everyone was well informed about what was going to happen, so people who didn't want to be part of it could make themselves absent.

I don't know if my daughter would want to watch a lion eat a giraffe, but she enjoyed watching them feed the wolves at a sanctuary we visited. Assuming the lions are going to be eating the giraffe anyway, I don't think I'd have issue with my kid seeing it if she wanted to. She's seen lions hunting on nature shows, seeing them eat something already dead is much less graphic/violent to my mind.

(no subject)

Date: 9/4/14 01:26 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yes-justice.livejournal.com
Carnage is shocking.

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Date: 9/4/14 16:22 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] policraticus.livejournal.com
I think that is true, but once the overpopulation has occurred zoos are left with limited choices.

I don't think there is any evidence that the zoo caused any gratuitous suffering.

(no subject)

Date: 10/4/14 03:42 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] allhatnocattle.livejournal.com
Wouldn't preventing breeding cause animals distress? I mean think of the human equivalent. If you think of all the things that childless couples sometimes do to conceive a biological child (and avoid adoption) the biological imperative is obvious quite deep. Do you suppose the Copenhagen Zoo staff ever considered this?

(no subject)

Date: 9/4/14 13:35 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] 404.livejournal.com
Maybe that will show kids that lions aren't sanitary vegan hippies.

(no subject)

Date: 8/4/14 17:52 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mahnmut.livejournal.com
Wait, you mean ungodly heathen socialist Europe is pro-animal-life, while god-fearing pious America is pro-animal-ahem...-choice? Hmmm interesting.

(no subject)

Date: 9/4/14 07:59 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mikeyxw.livejournal.com
Naw, we're for forced sterilization of animals. Gotta stay evil.

(no subject)

Date: 8/4/14 21:01 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] malasadas.livejournal.com
The good news is that there is an international comparison with peer democracies where America doesn't suck. The bad news is that it has nothing to do with human health or mortality. Well, you know, baby steps...

(no subject)

Date: 8/4/14 22:16 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fizzyland.livejournal.com
If this index is an affront to your jingoistic sensibilities, the U.S. remains in first place for the number of incarcerated citizens per capita, adult onset diabetes and for believing in angels. (http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/global-rankings-study-depicts-america-warp-speed-decline)

(no subject)

Date: 8/4/14 22:28 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] malasadas.livejournal.com
I suppose we have to believe in angels since there are so many demons of our own creation.

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