US NSC spokesperson got a creative idea to remove the riot police from the area of riot

[panchul.livejournal.com]

Ladies and Gentlemen, Comrades! If you watched the news recently, you may notice a new form of peaceful protests in Ukraine. Some guys who desperately want to become Civilized Europeans, started to throw Molotov cocktails into Ukrainian riot police. This police was sent by allegedly evil non-Civilized and non-European Ukrainian (maybe even pro-Russian!!!) government which is unfortunately democratically elected. "Unfortunately" because the very same government refused to sign the free-trade deal with the European Union, thus robbing Ukrainians from their dream of a horde of European Princes on White Horses coming and setting Everything Right in the republic of Ukraine.





Our Good Old US of A also decided to participate into the action and produced the following official paper:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/01/19/statement-nsc-spokesperson-caitlin-hayden-ukraine

The White House
Office of the Press Secretary

For Immediate Release January 19, 2014
Statement by NSC Spokesperson Caitlin Hayden on Ukraine

We are deeply concerned by the violence taking place today on the streets of Kyiv and urge all sides to immediately de-escalate the situation. The increasing tension in Ukraine is a direct consequence of the government failing to acknowledge the legitimate grievances of its people. Instead, it has moved to weaken the foundations of Ukraine's democracy by criminalizing peaceful protest and stripping civil society and political opponents of key democratic protections under the law. We urge the Government of Ukraine to take steps that represent a better way forward for Ukraine, including repeal of the anti-democratic legislation signed into law in recent days, withdrawing the riot police from downtown Kyiv, and beginning a dialogue with the political opposition. From its first days, the Maidan movement has been defined by a spirit of non-violence and we support today's call by opposition political leaders to reestablish that principle. The U.S. will continue to consider additional steps -- including sanctions -- in response to the use of violence.

Since I am Ukrainian American (actually Ukrainian Russian American), I decided to file the following petition on Whitehouse petition site:

http://wh.gov/l58fY

http://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/fire-nsc-spokesperson-request-withdraw-riot-police-area-riot-molotov-cocktail-kiev/xsQ2dhD2






WE PETITION THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION TO:
fire NSC spokesperson for the request to withdraw the riot police from the area of a riot with Molotov cocktail in Kiev

Caitlin Hayden, the spokesperson of the United States National Security Council, committed an act of sheer madness by issuing an official statement on the behalf of the Government of the United States of America, requesting the democratically elected government of Ukraine to remove the riot police from the area of progressing riot in downtown Kiev, Ukraine.

The Ukrainian government has both right and obligation to protect the government buildings, the people of Kiev and the whole Ukrainian State from criminals that use Molotov cocktail to attack the police. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever to let the mob running free in 3-million-people city of Kiev.

Caitlin Hayden demonstrated gross incompetence that is detrimental to the US security and the US image in the World. She has to go.

[Poll #1953173]

Comments

[anfalicious.livejournal.com]

It depends on the circumstances, and I'll admit I know little to nothing about this, but riot police around the world do have a tendency to cause riots. Who started the violence? Was there a riot before the police showed up? If not, then they're there as provocateurs, not police.

[panchul.livejournal.com]

It is all complicated. The protests started 2 months ago when Ukrainian president backed off the deal with EU because removing tariffs threatened Ukrainian farmers etc. However this event was pictured by pro-EU Ukrainian youth as denial to become a part of the European Union (higher wages, no visas) without any factual basis. These wannabe Europeans got pissed and started a peaceful protest on the capital's main square. Eventually the protest went nowhere but somebody started a night fight with the police and police dispersed the crown. This started cycles of more protest and eventually more violence. Some Ukrainian flavor of neo-nazi came to the square and here we are.

[anfalicious.livejournal.com]

Eventually the protest went nowhere but somebody started a night fight with the police and police dispersed the crown.

That's the key there. I've seen plenty of scuffles break out at protests because the police decided that they wanted to start enforcing laws (real or imagined). A really common one is:

Police: You have to move away from this area.
Protestor: No I don't, I'm here legally.
Police: MOVE!
Protestor: NO!
Police: *shove*
Protestor: *shove*
Police: You're under arrest for resisting arrest.

And I get the impression that Ukrainian cops are dodgier than Australian cops. Call me jaded, but at least in the countries I know about, violence at protests usually begins when cops start escalating and intimidating. For example, were the riot police there *before* the violence broke out? If so then they started the riot through their act of symbolic violence of just being there.

[panchul.livejournal.com]

*** And I get the impression that Ukrainian cops are dodgier than Australian cop ***

Difficult to say. Ukrainian anti-riot police is ordered to be very "nice" because they are watched by a lot of US and EU media expecting them to go nuts. For example, when a rioter got a bulldozer and started to threaten the police (with bulldozer!!!) they did not shoot him but "danced" with him for a while:

[brother-dour.livejournal.com]

I answered the last one, knowing full well that's what the U.S. does best...

I hope the police officer pictured is doing okay. He's (probably) a decent guy who is just doing his job.

[anfalicious.livejournal.com]

In my experience the riot cops are usually the most gung ho and testosterone driven. They have all these pretty toys and they're itching to use them, plus they rove in packs, which makes it easier to abandon personal responsibility.

[brother-dour.livejournal.com]

Maybe so. I don't know any, myself. LEOs, yes, but not riot police.

[existentme.livejournal.com]

Omg, lol, at "rove in packs"! - so deadpanned, too.

[anfalicious.livejournal.com]

If you've seen it in action, it's a great analogy. They look like a pack of street dogs.

[telemann.livejournal.com]

It's unfortunate your post leaves out a key component to this story that's important:

A controversial anti-protest law has come into effect in Ukraine, despite violent rallies against the legislation that have taken place for the past two days, ignoring an appeal for calm by President Viktor Yanukovych. The new law, which bans all forms of protests, was published in the official Golos Ukrainy, or Voice of Ukraine, newspaper, raising fears that the government would use excessive force to quell dissent...The violence, which began on Sunday, came after Yanukovych pushed through an anti-protest law that significantly increased fines and imposed jail terms for unauthorised street protests. The new law also prohibits activists from wearing helmets or masks to demonstrations, curbs free speech and limits the ability to investigate or monitor the activity of officials, including judges.


Source. (http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/01/ukraine-president-calls-calm-amid-clashes-201412016214424945.html)

[panchul.livejournal.com]

Thank you for the addition. To be honest, I don't understand the real impact of this law, so I did not add it to the post.

[anfalicious.livejournal.com]

If your government bans peaceful protests, then riots are a morally acceptable act (one could argue, the only morally acceptable act). Case closed, the government started the violence.

[panchul.livejournal.com]

I got impression that Ukrainian government banned no "all" protests but only some specific kinds of it like blocking government buildings. I find it very unlikely that the Ukrainian government would truly block "all" protests.

[sophia-sadek.livejournal.com]

Riots are never morally acceptable. They endanger more than just the powers that be.

[telemann.livejournal.com]

The real impact seems to have contributed to a confrontation, which makes it easier for the goverment to justify using physical force to end these protests.

[anfalicious.livejournal.com]

That's exactly what's going on here. During the Occupy protests the government ordered the police to clear out the protestors from the public square they were occupying, which they did with kettling, dogs, horses and riot police. When the arrests went to court the court said that the police acted without cause as they're only allowed to enforce laws that are on the books, not operate as security services for the government, so now they're bringing in laws that you need government permission to have a protest.

[ddstory.livejournal.com]

You're unclear on the matter, yet that hasn't prevented you from making definitive statements about the nature of the protests in your OP. Is there an explanation for that?

Perhaps you didn't do your homework well in the first place? Perhaps, for some reason, you've pre-decided what your stance would be on the matter, no matter the "additional" facts that are presented?

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

Not sure who's desperate, the people who want to live in a normal country, or those who'd go to whatever lengths it takes to prevent that from happening.

We've had months of unstopping protests over here in Bulgaria (http://talk-politics.livejournal.com/1792020.html) as well. For the most part they've remained peaceful.

...Until some "government-friendly" provocateurs entered the ranks of the protesters and started throwing stones on the police. This conveniently gave the authorities the excuse to take a firmer stance on the protests, and try to discredit them.

The scheme seems to be working just fine in Ukraine, as far as I can see. And of course there are plenty of gullible people who fall for the authorities' narrative all too easily, as is evident from the premise of this post.

Congrats, you've made the case for government propaganda.

> maybe even pro-Russian

Very funny indeed (http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-12-17/ukraine-cuts-a-deal-it-could-soon-regret).

[panchul.livejournal.com]

*** .Until some "government-friendly" provocateurs entered the ranks of the protesters and started throwing stones on the police ***

Such provocateurs certainly do exist, however the total number of people fighting at the moment is way too large to consider them to be 100% provocateurs.

See for example http://www.businessinsider.com/10000-rioters-battle-ukraine-security-forces-amid-protest-ban-2014-1

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

And you've made a research, establishing which particular arbitrary number of people fighting is acceptable enough for you to concede the fact that provocateurs are regularly employed by authorities, particularly in our region, to conveniently make their case for them?

Where's your data, comrade?

[panchul.livejournal.com]

Man, I am sorry, I am not a political researcher. I am an electronic chip design engineer.

However as an amateur in politics I find it very doubtful that 10000 fighting people mentioned in the article above are all provocateurs..

[sophia-sadek.livejournal.com]

Riots are an important vehicle for democratic change. Whenever a country cracks down on rioters it looks bad in the eyes of the democratic elites. This creates pressure to subjugate that country to democratic rule from afar. Caitln Hayden is doing her job in promoting the subjugation of the Ukraine by democratic elites from western nations.

[panchul.livejournal.com]

This is an interesting argument but it is valid if and only if the US has means to force Ukraine to democracy through military intervention. I personally consider this scenario completely off the table because the very first American bomb dropped on the Ukrainian soil would cause very severe and long lasting reaction from Russia since Russian people consider Russia and Ukraine to be the same culture (similar to the US and Canada). This would be akin Russia bombing Vancouver - for every American this would be like the attack on the United States.

[sophia-sadek.livejournal.com]

Military intervention is a method of last resort. There are more subtle approaches to bringing a country like the Ukraine into the Western orbit.

[panchul.livejournal.com]

For example?