[identity profile] telemann.livejournal.com posting in [community profile] talkpolitics

A participant in the "kissing protests" was attacked and kicked in a recent Moscow protest*

In the Sunday edition, the New York Times published an Op Ed by New York City actor, playwright, and producer Harvey Fierstein condemning the Russian crackdown on gay rights; with an appeal to use the upcoming Winter Olympic games in Sochi as a platform to condemn the homophobic policies of President Putin and the Russian parliament.



Mr. Fierstein noted in his op-ed:


...just six months before Russia hosts the 2014 Winter Games, Mr. Putin signed a law allowing police officers to arrest tourists and foreign nationals they suspect of being homosexual, lesbian or “pro-gay” and detain them for up to 14 days. Contrary to what the International Olympic Committee says, the law could mean that any Olympic athlete, trainer, reporter, family member or fan who is gay — or suspected of being gay, or just accused of being gay — can go to jail.

Earlier in June, Mr. Putin signed yet another antigay bill, classifying “homosexual propaganda” as pornography. The law is broad and vague, so that any teacher who tells students that homosexuality is not evil, any parents who tell their child that homosexuality is normal, or anyone who makes pro-gay statements deemed accessible to someone underage is now subject to arrest and fines. Even a judge, lawyer or lawmaker cannot publicly argue for tolerance without the threat of punishment.




Mr. Fierstein pointed to a recent case of a 23 year old gay man murdered in Volograd. When the man stated he was gay, he was beaten, his body violated with beer bottles, his clothing set on fire, his head crushed with a rock and his genitals removed. The crime was so ghastly, it's an example of homophobia being described as the motivation of the attack (most Russian authorities deny there are such attacks).

Recalling how the world largely ignored Adolf Hitler's treatment of Jewish citizens during the 1936 Olympic Games in Munich, in addition to a call on the International Olympic Committee, and political leaders to vocalize their concerns about the curbing of human rights, there is also a movement to have Olympic atheletes condemn the Russian policies by wearing gay right emblems on their uniforms, and speaking out when ever it's possible. I don't know how effective such a campaign would be, some in Russia already seem to have persecution complex, reminiscent of the Soviet era, or the Politburo in China complaining about Western interference regarding civil rights within their own country. But the moral imperative to speak out against brute bigotry, and discrimination against an entire class of a country's citizens demands action.

Four Dutch nationals who were making a film on gay rights were recently arrested and interrogated by authorities for "promoting homosexual propaganda," which is the first known instance of the new law being implemented.

The original Op-Ed piece that ran in the New York Times.

Harvey Fierstein's Wikipedia entry.

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Date: 22/7/13 18:47 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] malasadas.livejournal.com
I have been watching events unfolding in Russia with some considerable dismay, but I also have to say I don't have a terrific read on the motivation here. Is this an attempt by Mr. Putin to elevate a new scapegoat in Russian society in the manner that the Tsars used against Jews in the 19th century (http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005183)? Is it Putin trying to defiantly establish Russia as opposed to the perceived movement forward on gay rights in several Western European nations as part of its "unique" culture? Is this a vigorous push to try to institutionalize current prejudices before sentiments change with the younger generation?

All three?

I am mindful that in my adult lifetime the United States Supreme Court upheld the right of states to criminalize private consensual behavior between adults (http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0478_0186_ZS.html) and that current Associate Justices dissented from the case that struck that down. (http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/02-102.ZD.html)

What I do not know is if Russia is having its 1970s Anita Bryant overreaction phase to the idea of gay rights or if it is heading down a much more sinister path. My fears, and the reasons why my ancestors left Russia, say it is sinister. I'd like to believe the IOC is going to do something, but I am not naive enough to expect them to have the guts.

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Date: 22/7/13 20:19 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com
I have been watching events unfolding in Russia with some considerable dismay, but I also have to say I don't have a terrific read on the motivation here.

To me, it seems extremely predictable: Putin is a throwback to the Soviet era, and this is just one of many moves toward further consolidation of the thoughts and actions of the populace he rules over. We hear about this because there's a contrast of sorts between the recent Supreme Court ruling and this issue, but the broader knowledge of the West when it comes to things like Pussy Riot or press freedom take a backseat to things like this and Snowden.

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Date: 22/7/13 20:27 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
In this case it's probably reviving an old Soviet-era scapegoat. After all being gay was a capital crime back when the CPSU was running things. Putin, after all, was a KGB agent. People didn't get to be KGB agents without not merely drinking the Kool-Aid but doing a butterfly stroke and a paddle-swim in it.

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From: [identity profile] papasha-mueller.livejournal.com - Date: 23/7/13 06:20 (UTC) - Expand

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Date: 23/7/13 14:30 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yes-justice.livejournal.com
1970s Anita Bryant overreaction phase to the idea of gay rights or if it is heading down a much more sinister path

Just want to add that even in the bay area those were sinister times, and there were murdered corpses to show for it. If by sinister path, you mean like Nigeria or Turkey, then we can only hope no.
Edited Date: 23/7/13 14:30 (UTC)

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From: [identity profile] malasadas.livejournal.com - Date: 23/7/13 14:56 (UTC) - Expand

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Date: 22/7/13 18:48 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] imfromjasenevo.livejournal.com
Ohh, he is not lesbian participant, I'm not sure about his sexual orientaion, he is likely just a civil defender of LGBT rights
(his father is lj-user)

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Date: 23/7/13 14:31 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yes-justice.livejournal.com
May I have more information, please?
Edited Date: 23/7/13 14:31 (UTC)

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Date: 22/7/13 18:54 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] papasha-mueller.livejournal.com
"the law could mean that any Olympic athlete, trainer, reporter, family member or fan who is gay — or suspected of being gay, or just accused of being gay — can go to jail"

Mr. Ferstein IS a liar.
The law in question is NOT against being gay, lesbian, transvestite or all of the above, be you olympics athlet, or ballet dancer, or hot dog street seller.
This law claims illegal the PROPAGANDA of being gay, etc.
And not just propaganda - the propaganda of this joy TO THE CHILDREN, it is supposed that Russian adults can take it without damage.

The rest is bullshit.

Edited Date: 22/7/13 18:56 (UTC)

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Date: 22/7/13 18:58 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dexeron.livejournal.com
And not just propaganda - the propaganda of this joy TO THE CHILDREN,

And would such "propoganda" include having the gall to dare to exist, and do so in public?

Gee, sounds a lot like "any person who is gay can go to jail" to me.


Might as well say: "You can have free speech, but only so long as you don't say anything."

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Date: 22/7/13 19:19 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dziga123.livejournal.com
"This law claims illegal the PROPAGANDA of being gay" "...propaganda of this joy TO THE CHILDREN..."
This is usual Russian doublespeak. You can't run "Gay Pride Parade" anywhere in Russia any more because it "can be seen by children", open gay can't be public figure, because he "can be seen by children" on TV, open gay can't work at school, because "there are children",

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Date: 22/7/13 19:29 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dwer.livejournal.com
why don't you post the text of the laws, so we can judge? Because it seems like Mr. Fierstein isn't the liar.

And then, of course, I might ask "Why does Russia need a law regulating the behavior of gay people anyway?"

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Date: 22/7/13 19:57 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] malasadas.livejournal.com
The reliability of your take on this issue is highly suspect. A broad range of people have examined the laws in question and support Mr. Fierstein's take on how they can and likely will be utilized. Flapping your arms really hard, calling people "sonny" and saying "bullshit" is not going to convince anyone.

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Date: 22/7/13 23:40 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kylinrouge.livejournal.com
Public displays of affection is propaganda?

Yikes man, that's some good kool-aid you got there.

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Date: 23/7/13 14:33 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yes-justice.livejournal.com
his law claims illegal the PROPAGANDA of being gay, etc.
And not just propaganda - the propaganda of this joy TO THE CHILDREN



"Men have sex with men. Women have sex with women."

Russia is scared to show those words to a child.

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Date: 22/7/13 19:46 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dziga123.livejournal.com
I think that photo needs some explanation.
You can see the tactic that government supported defenders of "traditional values" widely use in Russia: they take children to gay events. Older punks knock gays down and then children kick them with feet and sticks, while they on the ground. You can see this on the picture. Police, of course, do not interfere.

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Date: 22/7/13 20:07 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
There's no surprise in an ex-KGB agent cracking down on gay rights. In fact it's pretty predictable that a veiled dictator raised on Soviet-era douchebaggery would do that. However Hitler's treatment of Jews in the 1936 Olympics was fairly decent: the street bum was too smart to engage in medieval-style scapegoating of that sort with the whole world watching. Putin, on the other hand, is debatably that smart. I mean we are talking about a guy who poisoned an exile in London.

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Date: 22/7/13 20:50 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rimpala.livejournal.com
I do love all the apologizing for it, the whole "Oh it's ok! We are just saying they can't do a few things that straight people can do with the threat of imprisonment that's all!

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Date: 23/7/13 05:32 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kylinrouge.livejournal.com
Sounds like Putin spent too much time in those rugged Siberian lodges and got a bit insecure with all that manliness around him.

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Date: 23/7/13 06:23 (UTC)

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Date: 23/7/13 07:04 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] musicpsych.livejournal.com
At least this misplaced modifier in the article comments made me grin: As an American Jewish Gay man of Russian descent, Putin's actions are just another good reason I thank God everyday that my ancestors had the good sense to leave that terribly bigoted land! - Richard, Minneapolis

Well, I guess Russia won't be getting my tourism rubles as long as these laws are in effect. (Especially since LJ is now a Russian company - they know all my secrets). Like, I can pass, but it would probably make me self-hate the whole time I was there. I feel how I felt when Bush Jr. tried campaigning for a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage. I'm sick of this.

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Date: 23/7/13 11:21 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] skull-bearer.livejournal.com
You know, at least Hitler had the sense to tone down his Antisemitic attacks in the run up to the olympic games.

Putin: Dumber than Hitler.

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Date: 23/7/13 13:45 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yes-justice.livejournal.com
Knuckledragging homophobes in the picture sure are cowards. What is that? Five men to beat down one woman? Losers.
just six months before Russia hosts the 2014 Winter Games, Mr. Putin signed a law allowing police officers to arrest tourists and foreign nationals they suspect of being homosexual, lesbian or “pro-gay” and detain them for up to 14 days. Contrary to what the International Olympic Committee says, the law could mean that any Olympic athlete, trainer, reporter, family member or fan who is gay — or suspected of being gay, or just accused of being gay — can go to jail.
I would say "FUCK YOUR MORALS", but that behavior does not even qualify as morals.
Edited Date: 23/7/13 14:26 (UTC)

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Date: 23/7/13 15:37 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] papasha-mueller.livejournal.com
Great Putin heard you!!!
Today he signed another law, on footbal fans and hooligans.
Another crack of freedom and self-expression.

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Date: 23/7/13 14:01 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yes-justice.livejournal.com
the law could mean that any Olympic athlete, trainer, reporter, family member or fan who is gay — or suspected of being gay, or just accused of being gay — can go to jail.

Sign me up.

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Date: 23/7/13 16:54 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] papasha-mueller.livejournal.com
I admit I'm a little bit fed up.
Why people are so unwilling to think and so unable to educate themselves?

Here's general search on 'gay' 'club' 'moscow'
https://www.google.ru/search?q=%D0%B3%D0%B5%D0%B9-%D0%BA%D0%BB%D1%83%D0%B1+%D0%BC%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B2%D0%B0

Here's the review of gay clubs in Moscow
http://www.vashdosug.ru/msk/club/article/9295/

Here's a collection of links to gay community entertainment options"
http://www.zaskuchal.com/clubs/gei-lesbi/ or
http://clublife.ru/clubs.php?country=%D0%A0%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B8%D1%8F&city=&cat=4
You may want to click on the names.

Explore, navigate, reqad and learn new things and don't you come back to me telling about poor gay community stumped below the floor level by bloodthursty Putin.
And let the Power Google translator be with you, my beloved children my dearest readers.

Cheerio.

PS. This one is exclusive for this tread, for the lucky ones with sub-standard intellectual capacity, in English.
https://www.google.com/search?q=%27gay-club+in+moscow%27

PPS. A skinny in a nutshell:
"What everyone here knows -- gay or straight -- is how to have a private life that is different from their public life," said David Tuller, an American journalist and author of Cracks in the Iron Closet: Travels in Gay and Lesbian Russia. "In the West we would call that living a lie," he said. "Here they don't think that way. This is not a talk-show culture. Nobody is ever going to appear on television to talk about wanting to sleep with short men or tall women. They just want to be able to have their lives and not be bothered. For people here that would be a big step.'
(quoted from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_culture_in_Russia)

At this major note I leave you for my bar. Yes, I swap you all for a couple of pints of Guinness.
BTW, did I say I am always open to explain and discuss new things?
Good.

Edited Date: 23/7/13 17:16 (UTC)

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Date: 23/7/13 17:23 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] malasadas.livejournal.com
Except they cannot "not be bothered" as the government is pursuing numerous laws setting gays and lesbians aside for special persecution. That Russia is not a reality tv kind of culture is a good reminder but the laws are hardly so finely aimed as to preserve only that. There are blanket attacks and suppression in them,

Your words perfectly reflect the sentiments of white Alabamans in 1950. THEIR "Coloreds" were perfectly happy with their status. Just the "uppity" ones and "trouble makers" were causing all the problems...certainly not their happy little Apartheid state.

We've seen this dance before in America and elsewhere...those who "protect" themselves by instituting bigotry into law always seem to convince themselves that the oppressed are just so gosh darned happy with their lot.

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Date: 25/7/13 14:22 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] stewstewstewdio.livejournal.com
An open letter to Vladimir Putin

Dear Mr. Putin;

We believe that Edward Snowden is gay. We have a nice cellmate named Bubba that is dying to meet him. Please send him home so Bubba can give him the hero's welcome he deserves.

Your friend,

Barack Obama

Credits & Style Info

Monthly topic:
Post-Truth Politics Revisited

Dailyquote:
"The NATO charter clearly says that any attack on a NATO member shall be treated, by all members, as an attack against all. So that means that, if we attack Greenland, we'll be obligated to go to war against ... ourselves! Gee, that's scary. You really don't want to go to war with the United States. They're insane!"

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