Compassion anyone?

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

I cannot understand this whole SNAP debacle that is being played out and talked about. I do not understand how ANYONE can be against feeding the hungry. I am willing to concede that there will be waste and fraud. I cannot imagine what system(s) would not have *some* waste and fraud. That said, waste and fraud are bad, but, let's not go throwing the baby out with the bath water, eh?

Food is NOT an option for people. Neither is water. These two things are HUMAN RIGHTS as far as I am concerned. Nobody, anywhere, should be deprived of access to food and water. And you know what, these things, in their most basic form (ie. basic food staples, not fancy food feasts), should be free. That's right, free. For *every single person*.

I understand that to some cold-hearted demons out there, people only deserve food and water if they *work* for it. Well fuck that. Work is not the pre-requisite, IMO, for food or water. Those should be denied to NOBODY.

I have a question to ask folks here, and I'm not sure I will be able to stomach the responses, but here goes:

Under what circumstances should a hungry person be denied food/water?

Comments

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

Your questions are not logically following from what came before.

I will only respond to the "So?" part of your comment, to which my response is:

"so, people should not starve or die from dehydration because someone wants a profit. full stop."

[cheezyfish.livejournal.com]

So its only okay if they die because they can't pay a bill created by a not-for-profit municipal? Profit doesn't factor into the morality question.

The 2nd part is about people losing their homes over unpaid public utilities.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

what on earth.... you seem to have trouble following me.

I am not talking about people losing their homes, not here anyway. It's an important topic, but it's not the topic that this post is about. If you can connect that to the theme of the post, let me know.

As for profit doesn't factor into morality question, well, you are rather missing this point.

This is about the morality of feeding and watering our hungry and thirsty fellow humans. Profit should not be a factor when considering how to feed and water our hungry and thirsty fellow humans.

[cheezyfish.livejournal.com]

Profit should not be a factor when considering how to feed and water our hungry and thirsty fellow humans.

And I'm telling you having a public utility doesn't eliminate that at all. They want their money just as bad as a private corporation.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

How come I just went and poured myself a cup of water from the tap and I won't be getting charged an extra cent?

[geezer-also.livejournal.com]

Possibly because you rent with water and utilities included?

Heck, you should see my water bill, but it's nothing compared to my friends who own swimming pools. (really strangely enough, well over half of them are rich liberals ;D)

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

it appears (via Cheezyfish's link) that there is a cost. a very very small cost.

two gallons per penny. not free, but name one other good that you can buy two of for one penny. (and as I asked cheezyfish, what's the cost of a gallon of water in the supermarket?)

[geezer-also.livejournal.com]

Dude, I wasn't arguing anything, you asked a question, and I answered it.

I read your discussion with cheezyfish, and my friend, you were all over the place. The bottom line is you have the tap and you don't need to buy bottled water, so what do you even care that someone is making money on bottling water? There are places all over where I work and live where you can get a gallon of distilled water for 25 cents a gallon...the catch, you have to provide your own container.
CF is correct, the "packaging" is the cost. Under "cool story bro" When I was young I worked in "concessions" (baseball games etc) and I can tell you the cup cost more than the soda that went into it :D

[yes-justice.livejournal.com]

Replace your lawn with native low water plants and drip irrigation. You'll reduce consumption and bill.

[geezer-also.livejournal.com]

Well, being honest, using myself was a bit of hyperbole, as I have almost already gone into drought mode.
We just got a drip system for the flowers, but I haven't installed it yet. I have two small patches (and a parking strip) of grass in the front yard. The bushes are all native low water Our front porch does look like somebodies grand-ma's house...oh wait.
(funny story behind that comment: when my wife first started with all her potted plants on the front porch (and my 9 different geraniums) my wife said that...I pointed out to her that she was a grand-ma 6 times over (now 9)). We have a lot of low water succulents and flowering cacti. My poor backyard, which is too big, doesn't even get watered every week (a shame really since the hybrid Bermuda was poised to take over) and is brownish. We did plant a small veggie garden this year and got a dwarf nectarine tree which I keep watered.

I do appreciate the spirit and intention of the advice...thank you.

The way to approach a fiscal conservative to "go green" and re-cycle is to appeal to his pocketbook :D

[yes-justice.livejournal.com]

Sounds ideal! Typical water savings of drip are about 80% and you only water the plants you want, weeds are on their own, plus it just happens when all goes well.

[cheezyfish.livejournal.com]

If your user info is to be believed, you pay 3.58 per 100cf (http://www.nyc.gov/html/nycwaterboard/html/rate_schedule/index.shtml). As geezer said, you probably pay it indirectly through rent (as each building has their own meter, each unit typically does not). Or you have your own well, which is what most of rural America does.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

under 4 bucks for 748 GALLONS

so....roughly one penny gets you two gallons of water.

that's not *free* but a penny for two gallons aint bad. remind me what a gallon of water runs you at the supermarket...

that said, I will retract my *free* adjective. the cost must be included in rent, since nobody i have ever known in NYC (nor when I lived away at college did I have a water bill) has ever had a water bill. the water bill must be small enough that landlords do not mind bearing that burden without informing their tenants that they shoulder that cost.

[cheezyfish.livejournal.com]

so....roughly one penny gets you two gallons of water.

Slow down there. You go through a whole lot of water without realizing it. You are probably paying around 20 dollars a month, you just don't know about it. That cost more than rental insurance a lot of the time.

remind me what a gallon of water runs you at the supermarket
That water is a bit of a rip yes, but don't underestimate the cost of bottling water. There is a reason a 2 liter of soda cost a similar amount as a 20 oz bottle. The cost is in the plastic, production and delivery.

since nobody i have ever known in NYC (nor when I lived away at college did I have a water bill) has ever had a water bill. the water bill must be small enough that landlords do not mind bearing that burden without informing their tenants that they shoulder that cost.

You pay, its in your rent. You also think people who don't pay for natural gas don't ultimately end up paying it in their rent? You also think you don't pay property taxes? All of that is built into the rent. Welcome to the real world, were you pay for shit.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

"There is a reason a 2 liter of soda cost a similar amount as a 20 oz bottle. The cost is in the plastic, production and delivery."

I am calling bullshit on that unless you can prove it.
I operate on the assumption that the reason for that is *because people will pay it*. Sodas are a fucking rip-off no matter how you slice it, but hey, provide me with details disproving my POV and I will drop my POV and adopt a new one based on new info.

But seriously, what does a gallon of milk at a supermarket cost? $3? $4? Let's be really, really generous and say it only costs $2, which I doubt, but OK.

Two gallons for one penny, or one gallon for two dollars. What's the difference there in cost? I'm bad at math right now but....I think it's around a 20,000% cost difference? That's pretty damn significant.

If I use lots of water or if I use very little water, my rent is the exact same.
Restaurants don't charge you per cup of water (tap water, not bottled, of course) you drink, do they? Why don't they charge people for tap water??

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

errr, gallon of water, not milk. fingers are faster than brain....

[cheezyfish.livejournal.com]

I operate on the assumption that the reason for that is *because people will pay it*. Sodas are a fucking rip-off no matter how you slice it, but hey, provide me with details disproving my POV and I will drop my POV and adopt a new one based on new info.

You end up paying a bit more for a smaller bottle for convenience and cooling, but the soda inside of it is practically free to make. The cost are primarily the bottle and logistics. Coca-Cola has a profit margin of approximately 15% (http://ycharts.com/companies/KO/profit_margin). They aren't exactly making huge profits. Not bad, but they aren't apple.

But seriously, what does a gallon of milk at a supermarket cost? $3? $4? Let's be really, really generous and say it only costs $2, which I doubt, but OK.

I think walmart sells it for a buck or so.

Two gallons for one penny, or one gallon for two dollars.
Amazing what a pipeline can do. Instead of spending money on , fuel, plastics, and workers to distribute water, you can just spend on electricity to pump the water. It is a whole lot cheaper. Why do you think oil companies love to send oil through a pipeline?

If I use lots of water or if I use very little water, my rent is the exact same.
Leave your tube running cold water for a months straight. Watch your landlord flip his shit.

Restaurants don't charge you per cup of water (tap water, not bottled, of course) you drink, do they? Why don't they charge people for tap water??
So?

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

Coca-cola has a profit margin of 15%, but I don't traditionally buy coca-cola directly from the producer and most consumers do not do that either. So how much is coca-cola selling that 2-liter for when it goes to the bodega on the corner? To Wal-Mart?

[cheezyfish.livejournal.com]

Ya, that is the way it works. So?

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

Even at Wal-Mart, (which there are zero of in my city) if the Gallon of water costs $1.12 (which is what i found online, after some searching) let's round down to $1/gallon

That's still 10,000% as expensive as my tap.

[cheezyfish.livejournal.com]

So?

[yes-justice.livejournal.com]

but the soda inside of it is practically free to make.

Only because corn sugars are subsidized.

[cheezyfish.livejournal.com]

So what?

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

I will be charged an extra cent (well, in my country a cent is called stotinka). Because it costs the government company to build and maintain those pipes that I get my water through. Sure, it's cheap (compared to electricity and gas), but it does cost some stotinki.

[cheezyfish.livejournal.com]

and I'll add in addition to wanting their money just as bad, they use the power of the state to get it.