(no subject)

[allhatnocattle.livejournal.com]

Johnson shot only his intended victim. All of the bystanders were hit or grazed by police bullets.

Now I get that these NYPD are a little zealous given that 9/11 happened on their turf. I completely understand the anniversary is coming up in mere weeks causing tensions to be on high alert. So the fact that cops shot at a bystander is somewhat excusable. But that ALL bystanders were shot at by police protecting and serving is inexcusable.

There is something seriously wrong in the psychology of that particular NYPD precinct. Maybe the training there sucks. Maybe it's the ghosts that still haunt downtown Manhattan. Maybe it's that most downtown cops are on tourist duty; answering silly questions and locating lost children and luggage.

Jeffery Johnson committed a criminal act shooting his former manager. And he inadvertently caused a mass panic. But this is not right. Not right at all. Cops are supposed to quell fears and calm crowds. They shouldn't shoot at them all willy-nilly.

Comments

[meus-ovatio.livejournal.com]

Guns are right bastards they is. I go away from them whenever they come up. They're tricksy, unreliable, bastards. The only good gun is a gun in my hands. The rest of yous are dangers and menaces to society.

[policraticus.livejournal.com]

What evidence do we have that the police were shooting at them? My understanding was that they were almost all very minor wounds, perhaps from spent rounds or ricochets. This isn't a 100% excuse, mind you. Knowing your target and what is behind your target is the first rule of shooting. But couching your argument as if these policemen fired willy-nilly into a crowd is pretty irresponsible. There was a man with a gun who had already killed one person in a crowded area full of potential victims. In that situation failing to engage him down carries its own costs, as we have seen at places like Columbine. Obviously, this story is very fresh and no doubt the forensic reconstruction of the event will show us approximately what happened and why. Then we will be able to speak more intelligently about how responsible or irresponsible these officers were.

[meus-ovatio.livejournal.com]

The reason they invented Tasers was to provide safer non-lethal alternatives. Not as a general arresting tool to used against protestors, old ladies and unruly drunkards. I just thinks its quite informative just how messed up the Taser contractors are in relation to what they said they were for, and what they are being used for. Trufax: Tasers were supposed to replace shooting people, dangerous people with guns.

[policraticus.livejournal.com]

Were they meant to be used effectively against dangerous people who were pointing a gun at you? What is the range of your standard taser? 20 feet? How fast does a taser barb travel? It is 1,100 ft/sec?

Look, I agree that tasers are often used against the wrong kind of people. But if a Taser company told me to reach for a taser when the suspect is reaching for a .45? I believe I will decline.

[allhatnocattle.livejournal.com]

It is indeed early in this story and no doubt more will be revealed.

My point is that in this instance the actions of the police were obviously erroneous. No matter if they fired into the crowd, or fired past the culprit only to have bullet bounce off the marble and wing nine innocents, both situations are completely unacceptable.

To have one or two bullets accidentally hit bystanders is unfortunate yet plausible and understandable. By the time the ninth bullet hit a bystander it's pretty clear that the police officers in question completely disregarded the public's safety.

No doubt you won't be the only person to defend what happened there. I am trying to understand what happened. Nine ricochet's is a shitty excuse. Traumatized cops hyper alert isn't a good excuse either. Bad training or being rookies ain't gonna cut it either. This situation is bad all around. I find it indefensible.

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

> So the fact that cops shot at a bystander is somewhat excusable

Pardon?

[allhatnocattle.livejournal.com]

Cops are just frail human beings like we all are. So give a person the stress of say trying to do a job on one of the busiest street corners in the world, people constantly bumping into you, pushing, shoving, all day long. Now add onto that stress with the anniversary of one of the largest terrorist attacks and the heightened alert of avoiding another terrorist attack. And then add on again with an actual shooter drawing a gun on you. Stress elevated yet again by shooting at the gunman. Let's just say these two cops were stressed.

Questions race through cops mind; Is gunman alone? I can understand if they shot at bystander that might be reaching for a gun or maybe it's a celphone. Yes, under these circumstances, I think it's somewhat excusable.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

I don't know how it went down, but the article says police had a gun pointed at them (Johnson apparently pointed (but didn't fire) his gun at police"; if I'm a cop, that's a pretty rational time for me to shoot at the person pointing a gun at me. hopefully I can shoot him before he shoots me. should I wait till he takes a shot a killing a second person by aiming at me, my partner or anyone else?

I'm hardly one to defend the NYPD. But I don't know in this case.

Yes, police need to use caution when shooting their guns with lots of people around. Yes, police need to shoot at a man who just killed a person and is aiming the gun he used to commit that murder at you (or others in the crowd).

[allhatnocattle.livejournal.com]

Yep, I read the same thing, : Johnson drew his gun (at police) but didn't fire. Officers shot at Johnson in total of 16 times from 8ft away. Johnson's body was only hit 10 times. The other bullets went stray. To me that's not just shoot to wound or shoot to kill. That's a bit crazy.


The two cops approached Johnson, who drew his gun, turned and pointed it directly at the officers from about eight feet (2.4 meters) away, police said. Police opened fire and shot him, Police Department spokesman Paul Browne told reporters.

One officer fired nine times and the other seven times, Browne said. Investigators believe Johnson was shot seven times; his body had 10 bullets wounds, three of which were believed to be exit wounds, Browne said. (http://www.torontosun.com/2012/08/24/shooting-near-empire-state-building)

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

This incident is yet another link in the vast Obama conspiracy (aka Obamaspiracy) to make guns look bad. Now the government is using guns to shoot at people too! But we all know that guns don't kill people; the police kill people.

[luzribeiro.livejournal.com]

Indeed they do (http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/south-africa-police-ministry-more-than-30-striking-miners-killed-in-lonmin-plc-mine-shooting/2012/08/17/26772cb0-e832-11e1-9739-eef99c5fb285_story.html).

Especially when those people are carrying machetes.

[policraticus.livejournal.com]

Do you think the killing of Johnson was unjustified?

[harry-beast.livejournal.com]

Jeffrey Johnson, you did not build that mass shooting. Somebody else made that happen. In this case, the police.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

At the very least the police there need some fucking practice in aiming and shooting.

[allhatnocattle.livejournal.com]

Throw in a little restraint and I'm with you

[caerbannogbunny.livejournal.com]

I used to do termite control, a form that required monthly inspections outside and one of my clients was this freshly retired Phoenix PD sergeant that had been in from the 1960's until the late 1990's. For much of that time, he was a desk sergeant and sat by the area police would clear their weapons coming into the area he worked.

One of the reasons he said he knew it was time to get out was the number of times a day a cop would put a round into the clearing barrel when they transitioned from revolvers to Glocks. He said it took weeks--even after their transition training--for most cops to understand that there was still one in the chamber...

To be honest, unless they're SWAT or otherwise a "firearm enthusiast", many police officers are almost as daft at operating handguns as a half-trained civilian except for those specific tasks they are repetitively trained for like drawing from the specialized holsters they carry. So, definitely more practice for most of them.

[unnamed525.livejournal.com]

What are you? Some of goddamned commie nazi terrorist-lover? Everybody knows that cops can do no wrong.

[allhatnocattle.livejournal.com]

You know how cops are, always letting us off with warnings, nice folks that they are.

[rimpala.livejournal.com]

I don't know the whole story behind this yet, but it sounds like the very opposite of the concept "serve and protect".

[allhatnocattle.livejournal.com]

To obstruct and enslave

[bord-du-rasoir.livejournal.com]

One nitpicky thing: The Empire State Building is considered Midtown Manhattan. Downtown (where the WTC is) is further south.

Obviously this looks really bad for the police - shooting/grazing 9 innocent bystanders while Johnson shot 1.

But, to be fair:

- Johnson killed 1. The police killed 1 (Johnson).
- Johnson aimed his gun at an officer.
- We don't know the extent of the injuries incurred by the bystanders.
- We don't know the trajectories of the bullets that hit the bystanders.
- We don't know the specifics of the situation the police faced when they shot.
- There's a lot we don't know.

So it might not be as bad as it seems. But even given all that, hitting 9 bystanders while Johnson only hit 1 seems indefensible.

[allhatnocattle.livejournal.com]

Nitpicky fine. But anywhere with a 102 storey office tower near interstate train/bus stations and the tourist mecca of Times Square sure seems pretty much downtown to this yokel.

I don't pretend to know the details either. I am perfectly willing to accept the unfortunate circumstances of "collateral damage" (to use a military term). From what the mayor said it seems like he's pretty confident that the 9 bystanders suffered pretty minor injuries which is probably best explained by slowed trajectories of richochet or passing through the suspect (there is said to be 7 entry and 3 exit wounds). One girl was shot in the foot. But I can only make educated guess from limited information broadcast on the news.

[telemann.livejournal.com]

Never mind that shooting incident just last week with the guy running around with a knife / machete.

[kinvore.livejournal.com]

If only those bystanders had been armed, they could have returned fire.

[allhatnocattle.livejournal.com]

Could 've. Should 've. Would 've. Excuses, excuses.