Honestly: the minimum wage does need to go up

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

This post got me thinking.

I am firmly in favor of:

A) A higher minimum wage in the whole US, and my home state of NY
B) Honesty in politics

While the OP I linked to is not exactly dishonest, it's not exactly honest either.
And this is not to put flak upon the poster there, but it's an example of political rhetoric that is used to leverage one side of a conversation, ignoring nuance.

the graphic in the linked to OP:

1) Doesn't seem to take into account state laws that raise min wage over fed laws
2) Doesn't take into account the vast difference in housing throughout a state

My objection is more with 2 than 1. 1 is easy to take care of, but 2 is not easy.

New York City is WAYYYY more expensive than Rochester or Buffalo, NY; or a large number of other places within the state I could name. Yet, this graphic gives us a number, presumably an average. But that average is way skewed. But how else should they do it? Give us on graphic for NYC and another for the rest of NY State? That wouldn't work either, because then you'd need to break it down for other cities and so on. So what do we do?

We must talk about things in the big picture without getting bogged down in details, otherwise we will have to talk for eons before we can understand what needs to be done. So while I agree that the min wage needs to go up, across the US, I have a problem with the info-graphics created to support that argument. They lack nuance, and as such, are deceiving. Even if they don't mean to be, and are honestly doing the best they can to compile and sort the data, the inevitability of misleading data is going to doom us all.

That said.
Happy saint patty's day.
Was I drunk when I wrote this? You decide.

Comments

[kylinrouge.livejournal.com]

We were talking about how a bunch of employment costs are fixed. How changing the labor costs does not affect all the other costs.

Sure, I'll agree to a miniscule amount of higher prices. If only 6% of people make minimum wage then raising it will not seriously impact prices.

I highly doubt you've actually run the numbers of how much costs are impacted due to the raise of a minimum wage. I know you say you're a business owner, but these answers make me skeptical. Even if you are, it doesn't sound like you have run the numbers.

As for your bar example, do your bartenders actually make minimum wage? They get the service industry minimum and make most of their income from tips. Bartenders aren't actually "minimum wage", all it means is that their tips add up something that's higher than minimum wage, otherwise that's what they make. Increasing the minimum wage on bartenders would not drive up the price of drinks, in fact it wouldn't affect their wage AT ALL. All it would do is increase the minimum they must earn with tips, which wouldn't change the real amount they earn or the real costs of employing them.

I mean maybe you pay them minimum wage and let them keep what they earn in tips, but that's not how people make money in the service industry.

Even if we assume this specious argument that it would raise prices, you're not seriously going to tell me that a 30 cent increase on minimum wage for a bartender will affect the price of an 8 dollar beer. They only need to serve like 8 drinks an hour to make 'minimum wage'.

[kylinrouge.livejournal.com]

How changing one price point of the labor costs does not affect the others*

[rick-day.livejournal.com]

you're not seriously going to tell me that a 30 cent increase on minimum wage for a bartender will affect the price of an 8 dollar beer.


No, but what I will say is a .30 cents an hour increase is a joke and should not be considered.

I guess now we delve into what is a 'living wage'.

Bartenders keep tips. If it is a horrible night or they would a private event and don't get tips, we guarantee them $8 an hour.

Tips or no tips, they, unlike other hourly folks here, only get minimum wage in their paycheck. No one guarantees them tips. But they still bring home more than even the top managers.

[kylinrouge.livejournal.com]

Bartenders keep tips. If it is a horrible night or they would a private event and don't get tips, we guarantee them $8 an hour.

If it's a horrible night and a bartender can't even make enough in tips to make up the minimum wage, maybe your bar needs to go out of business. Even if this happens every now and then, it's such a vanishingly small percent of the time it does not affect you at all. If you have a bar and the bartenders don't clear minimum wage most of the time through tips, then your bar sucks. I'm sorry.

As for private events, once again unless they're doing this often instead of a 'once in a while' thing, again it's a small percentage of the time. Also, I'm not sure about this 'no tips at private events'. Most I know of at least have a tip jar, if not just straight-up tipping. Who the hell is signing up for these private events that will only pay them minimum wage? Hell, if they're not getting tips then they're probably not serving as bartenders in the first place.

If you're just running a regular bar I really doubt that you loan out bartenders to private events. In fact I don't even believe you. I don't believe a bartender would willingly go to a private event where they know they won't get any tips and get paid $8/hr.

Maybe you're just loaning out servers to a catered event? It still doesn't make sense, because you're not catering the event.

There's so much I doubt here, but even then a majority of the time they are making enough in tips to cover minimum wage, so much so that it isn't really an argument against raising minimum wage just for the one or two times they somehow don't, because this really doesn't affect you or frankly, them. If a raise in minimum wage somehow makes them earn more money, then they were working at a shitty bar or they're awful bartenders. I'm not trying to insult you, but that's really all there is to it.

[kylinrouge.livejournal.com]

My bartenders are coming in night after night claiming they don't make enough so you have to pay them minimum wage! Why do they make clinking sounds when they walk out the door?

[rick-day.livejournal.com]

Let me see if I can make this clear. I have two businesses, one is an entertainment venue licensed as a restaurant and the other one is a convention center. Many nights at the convention center we have a bar minimum for most events if they want a bartender. If, for some reason, the crowd at the private event is smaller than anticipated, I can guarantee that the bartender will make at least $8.00 an hour.

As of this moment, we have had 1657 people go through a door @ $20 a head. We will wind up grossing over $25,000 for the night in bar and door sales, with a cost factor of about $7k (labor, COGS and talent).

This ain't "a bar" I have a restaurant venue with 5 bars as drink concessions and a restaurant kitchen for food with almost 30,000 sq ft of event space. FWIW, I am having zero problems staying in business or keeping bartenders TYVM :)

Hope this helps. If you want to check it out you can go to my profile and click the link.

[rick-day.livejournal.com]

I never said they were walking home with minimum wage. I DO NOT PAY THEM TIPS. I pay them PAY. and their PAY is actually $2.50 an hour, not even minimum wage.

What we do 'guarantee' is bonus that will get them to at LEAST $10.00 an hour if it is a private event, or a brand new weeknight event that has yet to catch on (see, a business can have slow nights and survive, if you are investing in a new night).

so my other stuff is corrected, after I woke up and was not pestered by the huge event we had going on.

[kylinrouge.livejournal.com]

What in god's name does any of this have to do with the fact that bartenders make most of their money through tips? Earlier you said "I am not against raising the min wage if you are not against helping me pay for it." Then you used the example of bartenders (this is a terrible example for you, if I were playing devil's advocate I could find better), who would not be affected by a minimum wage increase because they already make most of their money through tips, which also doesn't affect you since you're still paying them the same.

Then you used some examples where you are forced to give them minimum wage money because they couldn't make enough in tips (strange ones) and I said this would happen so rarely that it still didn't affect you.

If you're running a highly-successful venue with a bartender actually tending bar, there's no way they're walking home with minimum wage most of the time.

[rick-day.livejournal.com]

agreed. rarely, but it DOES happen within our unique business model. Any slow night is overlooked due to the potential of the place. We are already the hottest night spot in Atlanta, and we are only about half way from our maximum revenue potential. Bartenders, especially the good ones, know that you have to go where the crowd is. And this year, at least, it is with us.

I think I need to do an 'ask the businessman' post. A lot of people get the wrong ideas about good employers. There are good workers and bad ones, just like bosses.

[kylinrouge.livejournal.com]

I never said they were walking home with minimum wage. I DO NOT PAY THEM TIPS. I pay them PAY. and their PAY is actually $2.50 an hour, not even minimum wage.

Jesus, what are you talking about? Of course you don't pay them tips. Holy moly, I never said you did. You pay them $2.50 and the rest of the federal minimum wage is usually covered by tips. How did anything I said come across unclear?

What we do 'guarantee' is bonus that will get them to at LEAST $10.00 an hour if it is a private event, or a brand new weeknight event that has yet to catch on (see, a business can have slow nights and survive, if you are investing in a new night).

Still have no idea what this has to do with anything I was saying. We're talking about fucking bartenders and how they NORMALLY make money, stop giving me unrelated anecdotes about your business.

agreed. rarely, but it DOES happen within our unique business model. Any slow night is overlooked due to the potential of the place.

Yes, which is why an increase in federal minimum wage BARELY AFFECTS YOU AT ALL WITH REGARDS TO BARTENDERS.

[kylinrouge.livejournal.com]

This is like the 4th post in a row that I've said that.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

" .30 cents an hour increase is a joke and should not be considered. "

Why?
States that raise min wage every year, to adjust for inflation, might raise it 30 cents a year. why shouldnt that be considered?

[rick-day.livejournal.com]

Because it is not enough $ to matter, that is why it should not be considered. How about raising it 10% a year, every year? If we are to do this, let us make it meaningful and useful.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

If a state raises min wage 30 cents a year, over a decade it'll go up $3

What was the minimum wage in 1992?

[rick-day.livejournal.com]

then stop raising it thirty damn cent! Raise it more. Raise it a level where it matters.

God Damn! these math geeks, always want answers to the 4th decimal

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

what?
your not seeing my point.
if u raise it 30 cents a year thats fine--if its done regularly
if done regularly and not sporadically*, i imagine, it wouldnt need to go up much

since 1980 how many times has min wage gone up?

[rick-day.livejournal.com]

since 1980 how many times has min wage gone up?


I don't know. Why, is this a test? :D

I hope it is open book.

[rick-day.livejournal.com]

long night. sorry

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

Paychecks shouldn't depend on tips, tips should be bonus for a job done above and beyond. Just charge 15% more and pay that to the employee rather than requiring me to tip. It's just a silly system.

[kylinrouge.livejournal.com]

Charge 15% more and they'll go to a place that charges 15% less. It's not a realistic solution, this is what we got right now. Tips are society's answer to a job that's getting underpaid. Wasn't waitressing the #1 job for women to afford being in college at some point?

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

And society has taken it too far.

[kylinrouge.livejournal.com]

How so? What harm has been done, precisely?

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

You get a lot of people relying on tips when they shouldn't be, for one. You have to deal with regional customs that make social interactions that much less fluid. It's a hassle for people to remember how much the "proper" amount of tip is for various things (or even when to do it). Etc.

[rick-day.livejournal.com]

I agree it is a silly system, and one that thorough confuses USians when they go overseas.

Sometimes custom clashes with economics. Those bartenders get stiffed many more times than they get tipped.

It all works out in the end. As an employer, I can dictate tips are allocated to 'other staff' that supports the bar, but the system they developed themselves seems to keep everyone happy, and it does not add anything negative to my bottom line.