[identity profile] rick-day.livejournal.com posting in [community profile] talkpolitics
Well it looks like the hens have all come to rest, and The System, like the NBA, as overlooked the rising stars of tomorrow: the common man. A fatal Miscalculation, IMHO.

US Voters Increasingly Alienated by Two Major Parties

 A new book shows there are now more U.S. voters who identify as independent than as Democrats or Republicans, despite the fact that the two major parties maintain their virtual stranglehold on U.S. politics and, so far, on the 2012 presidential election process.

 In his book the “Apartisan American”, Russell Dalton, a professor of political science at the University of California, Irvine, reviews survey trends like the American National Election Studies (ANES), which show the share of U.S. citizens who consider themselves independent has nearly doubled, from 23 percent in 1952 to 40 percent in 2008.

Most of the shift appears to be among people who considered themselves Democrats to those who now consider themselves independent.

“In the past, Independents used to (attract) people at the margins of politics, less educated, less interested, who wouldn’t vote, people at the periphery,” Dalton told IPS.

“What’s changed from 20 percent to 40 percent is the growth among young, educated, politically engaged people who are turned off by political parties. They are interested in politics, and actually vote. They won’t vote out of loyalty, but out of issues. That’s what injected volatility into the [presidential] campaign,” he said.

“The unpredictability of elections, and the willingness of people to shift parties has increased; that’s the first whammy. The second whammy creates difficulties for candidates. They have their base that wants red meat party rhetoric to get them to vote. If they get their base to vote, they’re still 15 percent short of a majority,” Dalton added.

“The most dramatic thing is the Democratic Party is addicted to corporate money, the donations from corporate PACs (political action committees),” McLarty said....

...Yet there is another possibility for him or another candidate this year: a mysterious, well-funded group called Americans Elect is working to gain ballot access in all 50 states and is spending about 10 million dollars to do it.


Richard Winger, publisher of Ballot Access News and one of the nation’s leading experts on ballot access reinforced the Discontent of the Middle:
It’s a bunch of liberal Republicans who won’t abide with the Republican party,” 

“I think people are afraid the Republican Party is going to nominate someone who is inadequate. They want someone high-quality, thoughtful, and intelligent in the race, other than the president (Obama),” Winger said.

Winger says the quality of candidates seeking minor party nominations is increasing, and that the biggest obstacles to their success are the corporate media which will not let them participate in debates.

So we get to the core of the obstacle, corporate controlled media and money. In my cynical opinion, even if a 3rd major party coalesced, the cancer of corporate control would absorb the top tiers and fund raising, with the people shut out again.

Time to change this 'top/down' system into 'base/up' in mentality.

Is it going to take another Red October to change things in America? What do you think? Will a 3rd party "of the middle ground" rise to counteract the extremes that have become the American Political System?

(no subject)

Date: 27/2/12 15:56 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] enders-shadow.livejournal.com
Party of chocice: www.workingfamilies.org

(no subject)

Date: 27/2/12 15:57 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rimpala.livejournal.com
Status Quo... breaking! What are going to do!?

(no subject)

Date: 27/2/12 16:01 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] eracerhead.livejournal.com
I've seen third parties come and go. The biggest problem is that they are generally one-hit wonders and nobody will vote for a single ideology. Their largest role is to convince one of the two major parties to include their plank in the platform.

(no subject)

Date: 27/2/12 17:52 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] chron-job.livejournal.com
This.


Which isn't all bad... if your focus is issues, and not parties, if one of the parties absorbs an issue, that's a win.
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From: [identity profile] rimpala.livejournal.com - Date: 27/2/12 21:08 (UTC) - Expand

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Date: 27/2/12 18:03 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sophia-sadek.livejournal.com
I disagree. The Democrats insist on opening the big end of the egg and the Republicans insist on opening the little end. They are worlds apart.

(no subject)

Date: 28/2/12 15:43 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sophia-sadek.livejournal.com
Be careful what you pray for. You may find yourself on the receiving end of a golden shower.

(no subject)

Date: 27/2/12 16:08 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] a-new-machine.livejournal.com
No third party will rise, because of the realities of first-past-the-post, winner-take-all electoral districts. You'd need fifty Red Octobers to change that structure, so it'll likely never happen.

(no subject)

Date: 27/2/12 16:18 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] a-new-machine.livejournal.com
Third parties have a chicken-or-egg problem. No one will vote for them until they can defeat a major party in a broad way, and they will never defeat a major party until they get people to vote for them. We'd need some sort of exceptional demagoguery to break away from the two-party system entirely. Until then, everyone will just see a vote for whatever third party is closest to their side of the line as a "stolen" vote from the major party. People will vote for the lesser of two evils with a great chance of winning, rather than a good with next-to-no chance.

(no subject)

Date: 27/2/12 22:48 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] prog-expat.livejournal.com
In the swing states this makes sense, but what voters in safe states forget is the fuckery that is the Electoral College and how it (dys)functions.

For example, I vote in Utah, which will be carried by the Republican candidate come Hell or high water, so I can either A) contribute one more vote toward the Republican's landslide victory, B) lessen the Democrat's landslide defeat by one vote, or C) vote third-party and help one party maintain ballot access.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] peristaltor.livejournal.com - Date: 28/2/12 04:23 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 27/2/12 17:58 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] chron-job.livejournal.com
Well, a third party has arisen at least once in American History, even with first past the post elections.

The problem was that it was an almost immediate phase change, as the Democrat-Whig dichotomy became the Democrat-Republican dichotomy.

And that took an divisive issue like Slavery.

(no subject)

Date: 28/2/12 01:43 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] allhatnocattle.livejournal.com
There are at least two very divisive issues currently facing the American public.

The economy (everything from the debt/deficit to jobs) is a very fundamental issue and one that needs resolving sooner then later.

Secondly healthcare has yet to be addressed in a way that solves the unaffordable problem.

(no subject)

Date: 27/2/12 18:04 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sophia-sadek.livejournal.com
Some states have a whiner-take-all policy.

(no subject)

Date: 27/2/12 16:13 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] msretro.livejournal.com
I've believed for many years that the solution we need is Instant Run-off Voting. Instead of voting for one of say, five candidates, you rank your preferences in order. So, if I preferred the Green candidate (let's pretend for this exercise that it's not Roseanne Barr!) but could live with Obama, I'd rank Green first, Democrat second. Votes are tallied up so that the candidate with the most points wins. You can read more about it here: http://www.fairvote.org/instant-runoff-voting#.T0uq2IEqnvY
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Date: 28/2/12 04:25 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] peristaltor.livejournal.com
Maybe his keyboard is missing the vertical piece.

(no subject)

Date: 27/2/12 23:20 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gunslnger.livejournal.com
One person, one vote, cheater.

(no subject)

Date: 27/2/12 23:28 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] telemann.livejournal.com
Image
Edited Date: 27/2/12 23:30 (UTC)

(no subject)

Date: 28/2/12 04:25 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] peristaltor.livejournal.com
No, Sybil, you don't get to do that.

(no subject)

Date: 27/2/12 23:17 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] prog-expat.livejournal.com
I prefer range voting (http://rangevoting.org/). Rate each candidate on a numerical scale, with an X option for candidates you know nothing about. The candidate with the highest average score is the winner. Spoiling, clone candidates, and the like are all non-issues and honest, rather than strategic, voting is rewarded.

(no subject)

Date: 28/2/12 00:26 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] msretro.livejournal.com
I like that, too! Any number of options are better than the current system in the US.

(no subject)

Date: 28/2/12 04:24 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] peristaltor.livejournal.com
Absolutely. Been sayin' this for years.
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Date: 28/2/12 16:23 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] msretro.livejournal.com
I can see advantages to compulsory voting. The US has shockingly low levels of participation in elections, and I would love to see that changed, as well.

(no subject)

Date: 27/2/12 18:09 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sophia-sadek.livejournal.com
It is unfair to characterize independents attracting an intellectually marginal constituency. Eisenhower was an independent who won significant support for the Republican Party.

BTW, I was not familiar with your reference to "Red October," so I had to hunt it down (http://books.google.com/books?id=xz2LhK79I3gC&lpg=PP1&dq=hunt%20red%20october&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q=hunt%20red%20october&f=false).

(no subject)

Date: 27/2/12 18:20 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sophia-sadek.livejournal.com
Oh! I thought it was a Tom Clancy submarine.

(no subject)

Date: 28/2/12 02:22 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] geezer-also.livejournal.com
Probably both :D

(no subject)

Date: 27/2/12 18:46 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] oportet.livejournal.com
The only chance for a 3rd party or independent presidential candidate is to dig up some dirty - and I mean extremely dirty - shit on the R and D candidates and let it out about 2 weeks before the election. I'm talking about a picture of Obama kissing Ahmadinejad and a video of Romney blowing a clydesdale.

(no subject)

Date: 27/2/12 19:10 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] msretro.livejournal.com
Even that wouldn't be enough. Third party voters have two problems: one, minor parties just aren't serious enough about building the credibility of their candidates. Major party candidates almost invariably have experience as governors or members of congress that they bring to the floor, and they were usually primed for those positions by holding lesser amounts of power. By contrast, I have not had the opportunity to vote for a Green candidate for any local office in my area in at least 12 years.

Second, because of the way votes are divided, many people are afraid to cast a vote that will take a vote away from their candidate of choice. I am one of those voters. If we reformed the way we counted votes, through IRV or even eliminating the winner takes all nature of electoral votes, more people would be willing to vote for someone who was not a sure thing.

(no subject)

Date: 27/2/12 19:09 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] unnamed525.livejournal.com
There are no "extremes" in the American political system. We have a center-right party (the Democrats) and a far-right party (the Republicans). There is no real left-wing power in the US on the federal, or even most of the State and local, levels.

(no subject)

Date: 27/2/12 21:40 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] telemann.livejournal.com
Pretty much.

(no subject)

Date: 28/2/12 04:27 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] peristaltor.livejournal.com
Damned straight. If you're against the established money system, you are by definition the enemy of those who make money.

(no subject)

Date: 28/2/12 08:37 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kardashev.livejournal.com
Speaking only for myself, I'm not just alienated by the two major parties. I'm alienated by conservatism and progressivism themselves. The left and the right are outmoded political ideologies which aren't designed for the realities of what's to come in this century and beyond.

(no subject)

Date: 28/2/12 11:34 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] foolsguinea.livejournal.com
This is true.

(no subject)

Date: 28/2/12 09:58 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] anfalicious.livejournal.com
Damn people voting on issues! I knew we shouldn't have educated them!

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