Let's talk about bullying

[blue-mangos.livejournal.com]

A timely topic no?

We all know bullying is a problem. We've all heard, in the past few years, countless stories of teens or even children taking their own lives after being bullied at school and online. Bullied because they were different, bullied because there was something about them others didn't like. Many people here have stories of being bullied themselves in school. It is a very large problem. Made even more so by the fact that how can we teach our children that is is wrong when adults participate in it ourselves, particularly in an online setting *cough* where we may get away with things we would ordinarily not do in our real lives. Bullying even extends to politics, between the politicians and between their supporters on either side. We can be bullied for our ideas, for our choices.

Bullying usually starts out small. There may even be good intentions behind some of the participants, a desire to help one change or fit in. But then, in classic schoolyard behavior, in escalates. Some may begin bullying all the time, following their victim around simply to taunt. Children begin to see the attacked as a victim and feel safe joining in, especially if no adult or authority figure has intervened on their behalf. They do it for multiple reasons, but mostly because they can. I told the story previously, in my journal, of how in middle school I joined in the teasing of a new girl. I did it to fit in, to feel like one of the crowd, because it made me feel superior. Luckily, I had a teacher I adored take me aside after class and tell me she expected better of me. And with that my bullying career came to an end.

The effects of bullying are vast, both long and short term. The victim will feel alone and isolated. They may suffer from depression, anxiety, low self-esteem. They may have to withdraw from lj communities activities and places they enjoyed. Long term studies have shown an increased susceptibility to illness and even PTSD in some cases. And of course, as we have seen they may lash out, either against themselves as in the cases of suicide or against their bullies or an entire school in the case of school shootings.

In reading up on bullying I found something called the bullying mentality. It is when the bystanders to bullying do or say nothing. The people doing the bullying have managed to create, or even have, a situation where everyone feels the majority are on their side. So, even though they may feel what they are seeing is wrong, they are afraid to speak up against it, to show an unpopular opinion. I think this is what we have to fight in society. Instill in our children, and in ourselves, enough courage and respect for others that we can step in when we see a problem.

If we can take the situations where bullying occurs and use it to learn, if we can install the values of respect for others in the next generation, if we can change ourselves, I think we will see vast changes in society and within the political dialogue.

Comments

[lions-wings.livejournal.com]

I wonder if part of it isn't self-security, like it isn't an attempt at rewriting reality a little bit. Like "I am a good and normal kid, and I know that because I am not like Bella over there. So I am doing everything right, unlike Bella." Which would explain why little incidents get blown up so far and everything about Bella is picked over for something to make fun of.

It's speculative, but we all have the capacity for this. It might be worth speculation.

[blue-mangos.livejournal.com]

True, and this is the same mentality we see in victim blaming of rape victims from other women. She must have done something wrong, if I don't do that, I won't be raped.

Or in the cases of someone who harbours racist tendencies seeing those who are outwardly racist and denying their own because it's not as bad.

We do have a large capacity for denial and a desire to feed our own insecurities. So, yes, it may be a large part of it.

[blue-mangos.livejournal.com]

Sometimes we just need to take a step back and recognize a point as being made. The road to hell is paved with good intentions and all that.

[luvdovz.livejournal.com]

I have been subject of bullying and in the meantime I've also participated in bullying too, even if unintentionally. Sometimes you just lose sight of what you're doing, believing that you're doing it for the greater good, while the end result is more negative than positive; and then you need someone neutral from outside to point you at it. It was a lesson I learned.

There are people who are very sensitive, and others' behavior would affect them profoundly even when at its core it's not necessarily designed or intended as a malicious conduct. It is not easy to learn to cope with such sort of bullying, but you learn with time to fight back and not let others bring you down so easily. That is part of growing up and gaining wisdom, and that can only come through experience.

[blue-mangos.livejournal.com]

Yes, things may often start with good intentions, and even a desire to help someone, I am not denying that at all. However, as I said it often escalates. There's a line when it crosses over from helpful to no longer being constructive.

I recognize that some are more sensitive than others. But to expect them to have to be the one to fight back when they already feel alone and demoralized is unfair. We've learned that telling children simply to fight back does not work, and it often makes the situation worse, as they face consequences for their actions. It shouldn't be any different in adults.

[luzribeiro.livejournal.com]

I think I understand.

[blue-mangos.livejournal.com]

lol, subtlety is not my strong suit ;o)

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

Fortunately, there are good people who are willing to step up and speak on behalf of the oppressed.

[blue-mangos.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately those people often do not speak up until it is too late. They may have recognized the good intentions of some and the valid points being raised and fallen into remaining silent even when it crossed over the line. This is something that needs to be worked on in ourselves as well.

[malasadas.livejournal.com]

Anti-bullying is both incredibly important and incredibly difficult.

Environments where a degree of safety is necessary for productive conduct, for example schools, can try to address the issue via official rules and regulations, but there's very little chance of that succeeding in doing much more than drive the behavior out of view or beyond their jursdiction.

What's really at the heart of the matter is trying to move the social system from one where bullies either suffer no consequences or are actually awarded for their behavior to one where the behavior is not socially sanctioned -- even that has limitations as some bullies clearly do not care about social consequences and lots of efforts move social systems are themselves in danger of becoming bullying.

We talk a good game. But at a fundamental level, our species (and many others -- look to dolphin and chimpanzee behavior) seems to derive some psychic benefits to brutalizing those who are perceived as vulnerable.

Just call me Tub 'o Lard.

[policraticus.livejournal.com]

Countless stories? I can think of maybe 5. Granted, I haven't made a study of it, but to say the stories of suicide from bullying are "countless" is just emotional hogwash. There were over 30,000 suicides last year in the US. It was the 11th leading cause of death in the US. About 11 of 100,000 deaths are suicides in the US, a remarkably consistent statistic over the past 50 years. Less than 5,000 young people (under 25) commit suicide in a year, that is the prime bullying years. So, count 'em up. I would bet that 100% were bullied at some point. An interesting question to pose would be how many of the suicides were bullies themselves. Not an insignificant number, I'm guessing.

That being said, I was bullied. Pretty badly. Was it painful? Absolutely. Would I ever, ever endorse it? Never. Ever. I have thought for a long time, though, that it was a net positive in my life. It forced me, at a very early age, to think critically, to act judiciously and with restraint, to be objective and to not listen to, or care about, people whose opinions were baseless and cruel. I learned how to be my own person, to take criticism, examine it and use what was useful while discarding the rest. It taught me, most importantly, who and what a true friend is, about what it means to be loyal and to be shown loyalty. From being bullied I found out that my parents had my back and that they I also figured out when to draw a line, when to take a stand and how to throw a punch.

Re: Just call me Tub 'o Lard.

[blue-mangos.livejournal.com]

Hmmm, I can think of 3 just from this month alone. I can think of 10 just off the top of my head (cases, I don't remember all their names). And I'm sure if I went looking I can come up with many more. Perhaps countless was not the right word, I did knock this out quickly. But it is a significant problem. Even one child committing suicide over bullying is too many.

Not every child is as lucky as you were. To expect them to be able to learn, to take positive lessons from their bullying is ridiculous. Bullying, like poverty, does not always breed character. It shouldn't have to be something one goes through to come out better on the other side.

[nairiporter.livejournal.com]

Bullying is a serious issue, especially when it happens to very young people because it can affect them for life and deform their personality for many years ahead. In many ways it is similar to the rape issue, in that the victims are often ashamed to admit it openly and so the issue cannot be properly addressed by those who have the capability to solve the issue. And feedback is indeed essential. Both in real life and on the internet.

[meus-ovatio.livejournal.com]

Bullying used to mark you as a useless and failed human being who lacked a good Christian upbringing.

But now it is accepted as a rite of passage, with many Christian-types ironically extolling the virtues of a little conflict.

So you know, we've basically accepted bullying and changed from seeing it as anti-social and immoral behavior which is a good predictor for criminality. This is because the post-WWII mentality surrounding masculinity under went some huge changes, and violence and anti-sociality became a normative aspect to masculine conceptions.

And people think it is entirely "normal", but of course it isn't. It's a historical anomaly. It's idiosyncratic. It doesn't really make any sense.

[meus-ovatio.livejournal.com]

It should also be noted that "bullying" is just "assault" by another name, and had been treated as such for centuries up until about the 20th century. This is because we've all, to some extent, internalized narratives of social violence as acceptable avenues for maturation.

Our society wrt to children has become so twisted and distorted that we have "bullying policies" as if it is some kind of special thing we have to negotiate with, as we already recognize and assert its fundamental validity. Imagine if schools had carefully crafted "stealing policies" which made fine distinctions as to the acceptability of little theft to teach us the proper value of ownership.

All I'm really trying to say is that our society is sick.

[abomvubuso.livejournal.com]

Relatively recent story. My son (8) beat up another boy in school, but not as a form of bullying. Instead, he defended a smaller boy who was being systematically bullied by the second one. My son had warned the bully to stop it, but when it happened again and the small boy complained to him about it, my boy beat the bully. Blue eye and all that. The next day I was called in school to meet the principal. I was aware that he had done a bad thing, but meanwhile he had both been right and wrong to get involved in the way he did, so I protested any potential repercussions for him, and promised to speak with him instead.

Eventually the situation got resolved by meeting with the bully and his parents, and the bully took the lesson. My son wasn't punished, they made a compromise because he had actually defended the smaller boy. But as promised, I took a minute to talk with him and explain that violence can never lead to anything good - it only makes things worse for all sides, and it can make you a worse person. Yes, even getting involved against bullies in defense of a weaker one can make you a bully, if you resort to their tactics. I tried to make it clear that there are other, more elegant and more efficient ways to right the wrongs. I think he understood, although you never know at that age...

Can't deny that I felt somewhat proud deep inside me for what he did, though. You just can't help it.

/anecdata

[nairiporter.livejournal.com]

That was only possible because the other boy reported about the abuse. Most kids do not dare to talk about it. Or if they do, they use some subtle hints that their peers may not be able to detect ot decipher. That boy was lucky in this situation.

Still your son should have received some punishment, maybe a symbolic one but at least one that would make a point which he would keep in mind in the future. If one learns that exceptions happen, they would repeat the precedent. Sorry, I have been talking like a principal. :-/

[sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com]

I could be talking out my ass here but part of me wonders if the current spate of problems has anything to with the de-emphasis of socially acceptable forms of competition, violence, and conflict-resolution.

As others have mentioned, outlawing these things does not remove them, it just moves the to a different venue. The social and/or psychological equivalent of a proxy-war.

[meus-ovatio.livejournal.com]

It has everything to do with the modern institution of adolescent education which is generally sequestered from society and propagates its own cultures and rules. Before we shoved kids off for thirteen years of insitutional education, children weren't seen as "bullies". They were bad kids who needed to be taught proper manners. It wasn't a "right of passage", it was a sin. It was assault. It was bad. It was not the "way things were" or "just a little bullying"... these are all modern ideas and a result of modern society.

Warning: long rant about on line bullying and outsiders

[sealwhiskers.livejournal.com]

Here is the thing with on-line communities of the political type. We honestly all have moments (with possible exceptions of truly angelical beings) where we dislike some fellow member or other. Not only are they holding views that would lead to mass destruction and societal downfall, but they also have a pompous/whiny/uncool/droll/hipster/assholic attitude when they write their little comments or posts. And we act in accordance to these feelings, and we try acting within the rules, and some members are virtual masters at balancing *just* on the verge of the rules and yet fulfilling these feelings they harbor at that moment, and some are not so successful. And from a moderator's point of view, there is of course the highly interesting balance of what would stimulate debate and what would numb it, and then we can get further into what "debate" actually means. And we can go on and on.

Bullying in forums does exist, certainly, but it is extremely hard to pinpoint what is and what isn't sometimes, and where it started and what broke the camel's back.

I will say that what I *don't* consider bullying is people calling opinions crap and people disagreeing, even people disagreeing *a lot* and all the time, over and over. This can't be bullying in the sense of the word I place on it. Things can go out of line, and that's where we have moderators, but that is different.

There are times where I feel very out of place in some forum or another. No one cares what I would write and lots of people may even not like it. If I would bother enough, which I don't believe I've ever *fully* done, I'd do a bit of research and learn the lingo of that community, what phrasings work and what don't, and then go to town, with my opinions intact, but adding some slyness.

This is a bother though, so I'm not advocating it, just saying that if on-line "success" is what someone wants, it's the way to go. I have seen a lot of rather gender segregated forums, where a guy "walks in", has a hard time, figure it out and becomes one of the alphas, it's fascinating to observe, because there are such simple tricks to it, and a lot of willing "sheep" to lead round your finger.

For me though, when I feel out of place, I usually take a break, a step back. Or I go in full front heads on. But that's me, and I'm not making the mistake of saying that it works for everyone.

But here is what I also need to add: intent matters. The best way by far to resolve on line funkiness is to be upfront and ask: "why did you write that?" Your comment makes me feel like I shouldn't post, like I'm not welcome here and even disliked, was that your intention?"

Nothing throws off an on line bully (in a place with a no-trolling policy) quite as much as the opening of an honest dialogue. And if the person is not a true bully, they will be extremely eager to reach understanding and patch it up.

So somewhere I have to wonder where our *own* responsibility starts in regards to our hurt feelings, when we are safe behind a computer at home or work. Because I will dare to say that we *have* a bit of it. Here, the world is more complex than just containing assholes and victims.

I am saying this because in down-phases of *my* life, I am intimate with the feelings of outsidership and hurt. I know it well, like a lover almost. And in those phases, I know, that the last thing i need to be is a passive victim. I need to either explore what the hell is going on, if indeed something is going on, or I need to go and do other things very actively for a while and *then* come back to it.

And in this sense I do not believe I'm unique at all, just human. But it is very easy, when feeling like an outsider, to do something dramatic and impulsive, the tug for it, when we hurt is strong and alluring. The downside with that is that if we do that, if we throw the cape around us and leave, we will never know the full truth of what really happened, we will only know what we decided happened in our head. This is of course if we leave without a dialogue about it.

Re: Warning: long rant about on line bullying and outsiders

[blue-mangos.livejournal.com]

First, I fully agree with the first part, yes we all have the people whose style of communication or ideas may bother us. No one is above this.

I also agree that calling someone out on their opinions, even if multiple people do this does not constitute bullying. It is what we are here for. Where my problem comes in is when people begin being called out over and over not for their opinions but the way they express them. Not everyone has fantastic arguing skills, all we can do is try our best and try to improve and learn when things are pointed out to us. Which gets us into intentions.

Yes, as I said, I recognize intentions may have started off well. But it went downhill fast. When people are going into posts to do nothing but taunt, when person after person joins in as it becomes commonplace and almost fashionable to do so, that is where it crosses the line in to bullying for me. Especially when I see a person learning from the criticisms given and trying harder to form posts and arguments, because I was starting to see improvement and others were as well. And when not even that stopped the comments it definitely in my mind became about bullying. I recognize that no actual rules were broken and the mods had nothing to point at as against a rule. But that doesn't make behavior right or acceptable.

Of course staying and fighting is the best option. But we can't judge others on what we would do. All we can do is hope that we, as individuals, learn from our own mistakes. Because ultimately, like you said we are responsible for how we react. This does not mean though that we can't be a little kinder to each other to begin with.

Warning: rant aobut variety in posts and expressing opinions

[sealwhiskers.livejournal.com]

This post also makes me wonder if the community is at a breaking point of changing a bit. Certain people and dynamics are harbingers of change and those can usually hold some threat. The community is used to a certain style and in comes something different. The thing is, I really think this is false fear and is easy to dismantle. If you feel that you like certain types of posts or comments over others, and feel that you *have* to vent this openly, then sure, go to town. The thing I'll encourage the other types of posters/commenters to do is to simply say something to the extent of: hey, this is ME, deal with it or leave it. (all provided it happens within the frames we have in the community)

That's what I enjoy here in T_P, the *differences* in posts. And the successes of posts and members do not measure on amount of comments, amount of recommendations even, nor on who has the last word or the most words. It's the damn mix, without the mix we're nothing in here.

Re: Warning: rant aobut variety in posts and expressing opinions

[blue-mangos.livejournal.com]

I'm going to tackle this one first, because I have a lot to say on the first one ;o)

I had wondered if this were the motivation behind some of what I saw. My personal feelings are there is room here for all kinds of posts, assuming they fit within the rules and contain some personal opinion. Some posts are wonderfully inspiring and informative, some give us something to get riled up over, some divide us, some bring us together. Not every post is going to be to everyone's taste. There are posts I read but do not comment on, there are posts I don't read as the subject matter does not interest me and then there are the ones I get involved in. Everyone is different and I think there is room to provide for everyone's taste.

I certainly don't want this to become an ontd_political, as I said I recognize the rule for personal opinion and analysis as very important but not every post has to be a masterpiece. As long as it sparks debate and discussion it has done its job.

[anfalicious.livejournal.com]

I think it's vitally important to never forget the bully is a person too. Bullying usually comes from something, some trauma or abuse the bully has suffered. Very few bullies are "just jerks". I've seen some very successful anti-bullying programmes that use the act of bullying as a catalyst for counselling for the bully, rather than as an act to be punished. When you see someone being a bully, ask them what is wrong in their life that makes them feel the need to dominate others.

[sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com]

Forgive me for reading too many of my own hang-ups into this but...

Sometimes the "bully being a person too" just doesn't cut it. The implication is that on some level what they're doing should be tolerated and that's something I just can't agree with. It reminds of the conversations I've had with my parents (very left-wing) about my time in Iraq and the GWOT in general. There were times where I empathised with our opponents, I can even say that under different circumstances I might have been one of them, but not once did that make me question what I was doing.

I know it's a value judgment, possibly a poor one, but sometimes violence is the solution.

PS: yes I know I'm a hypocrite.

[meus-ovatio.livejournal.com]

I believe it was Jesus in the Gospel of John who said, "A little bullying is a good thing for the soul. Come let us sin so that character may abound."

[blue-mangos.livejournal.com]

I thought that was poverty.

[devil-ad-vocate.livejournal.com]

When does "teasing" become "bullying"? Anybody have opinions (need I ask) about that?

[lions-wings.livejournal.com]

How long it goes on over time (days vs. weeks vs. months,) how often in a day it happens, and whether or not it gets louder or more forceful as time goes on.

[rick-day.livejournal.com]

There was something in me that always detested bullying. Perhaps it was the parental torments I was subjected to early on.

Since 4th grade, I've always been several inches taller than the average classmate. Bullying never crossed my mind; I would never subject anyone to what I felt I was undergoing.

I believe bullying starts at home.

This is where the bully mentality originates.

At some time we can think back and remember the time we each faced the crossroads: will we bully, will we sit by and watch while bullying goes on or will we challenge bullies?

Mostly the threat of an ass kicking by someone 5 inches taller than you was enough to quell 100% schoolyard bullying. One jock (athlete),in my 10th grade year however, thought he could take me on with some bullying because I transferred from the rival cross town school. Fucker was 8 inches shorter than me.

He wound up backed into the biology class fish aquarium with my thumbs pressing into in his eyes (that is always a quick way to shut an angry human down). He got 5 licks (chronic bully guy). I got 2 taps with a paddle and sent on my way.

It was the only time in 12 years of school I ever went to the office for anything.

Goddammit, you people post questions, I start thinking about shit from the past and then I get all riled up inside, grr...

Drugs: they do so kill the pain

[kardashev.livejournal.com]

Back in 2000 when I moved here to Redneckistan, there was this sasquatch looking fucker named Kenny who gave me problems and threats of violence. I eventually settled it by attempting to shove my fist down his throat(literally), grab him by the stomach, and yank him inside out.

I didn't get my fist all the way in but after that he never bothered me again.

[kardashev.livejournal.com]

I was bullied a few times as a kid. But then my mafioso uncle explained to me that that what I needed was an "equalizer". And let me tell you, a nice hard chunk of asphalt upside the temples of a bully's head makes a great equalizer.

Especially, when he sees the blood. Always funny to watch a bully scream like a little girl. Other bullies see this a few times and move on to easier pickins'.

[sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com]

Easy in theory.

Not so easy in practice.

Agreed on the last bit though.

[jerseycajun.livejournal.com]

"Bullying usually starts out small. There may even be good intentions behind some of the participants, a desire to help one change or fit in."

I'm glad you included this, and actually think its worth expounding on.

I was picked on pretty much throughout my K-12 years, and until I learned some nuance late in that time period, I treated it as all the same in my mind. In reflection only about 2 of those years (when I spent my middle school years in a private school - great teachers and education, less than great classmates) did I experience genuinely mean-spirited bullying. The rest of the time it was just kids trying to get the shy kid to get out of his shell. And by ninth grade, it finally clicked and it helped shape the person I grew into as a result.

Bullying is a problem, but also a problem is that children can't always distinguish between the innocent and the not-so-innocent jabs. That comes with experience.

[anfalicious.livejournal.com]

I think that says more about your own resilience and ability to integrate your experiences of bullying than it does for the intentions of the bully.

[harry-beast.livejournal.com]

I don't agree that bullying ever starts out with good intentions. Bullying is cruel, it's ugly, it's hurtful, and everyone, even young children, know what they are doing when they attack, isolate and degrade fellow human beings.
As for bystanders, I think more would stand up to bullies and to other perpetrators of anti-social behaviour if there was a stronger sense of community, of shared values and morality in society, a sense of "this is who we are" and "we aren't a bunch of animals". But, we live in an selfish, narcissistic, materialistic culture, and bullying is one of the byproducts.

[anfalicious.livejournal.com]

It's worth considering how much bullying goes on that has little to do with the victim. The victim is often just the weakest in the pack, and the bullying is about other power relationships within the social group. In this sense it's no more sinister than being nice to your boss (but I think being nice to your boss with a goal of gaining favour is pretty sinister).

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

A soul-cleansing post. I venture to recommend it for the generations.

[blue-mangos.livejournal.com]

I'm glad you feel this way. I was worried about the reaction, but I felt it important enough to be said. And thank you.

[ddstory.livejournal.com]

The silence on this thread from the actual bullies is rather telling.

[the-rukh.livejournal.com]

I was sleeping, I swear!

[brockulfsen.livejournal.com]

It isn't the bullying that is soul destroying, it is everybody else not intervening. That gives the impression that it can never end, that this is eternity.

I was lucky. I'm harder to kill than I had resources to achieve so my suicide attempts in my mid teens didn't get me anywhere. I wanted to die. I did not want to face days more of it let alone decades.

It still haunts me 30 years later.

[blue-mangos.livejournal.com]

I am truly sorry you had to go through that, and I can see how that sense of being alone, of having no one make an effort to intervene would be hard. I'm very glad you made it through all that, that you are still with us.