(no subject)

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

Racism And Meritocracy

What accounts for the decidedly non-diverse results in places like Silicon Valley? We have two competing theories. One is that deliberate racisms keeps people out. Another is that white men are simply the ones that show up, because of some combination of aptitude and effort (which it is depends on who you ask), and that admissions to, say Y Combinator, simply reflect the lack of diversity of the applicant pool, nothing more.

The problem with both of these theories is that the math just doesn’t work.

I think this article presents a good case for non-racist causes of non-diverse results in this specific case, and I think we can generalize the theory to apply to the U.S. as a whole, for most cases. I would hope that this gives you something to think about.

In addition, I think you should consider his points about implicit bias and about how actively trying to counter a stereotype actually makes for a worse result.

And lastly, notice how none of the working solutions presented refer to history or "making up" for past wrongs when actually trying to create a meritocratic system.

Comments

[jonathankorman.livejournal.com]

The words “racist” and “racism” are vigorously contested.

You are taking them to refer to “bigotry”. I find it much more useful to take them to refer to injustice.

Taken in my terms, the article does indeed assert that the system is racist.

I buy Reis' argument that we cannot blame the way that Silicon Valley skews strongly White and male entirely on the bigotry of Valley denizens. I like that he's thinking systemically. I like the experiments he proposes for counteracting the racism in the system.

But his analysis and prescriptions are far from fully satisfying. His tone-deaf repeated protestations that of course there isn't any bigotry in Silicon Valley make him sound like a clueless product of White male privilege to me. “ I’ve certainly heard my share of sexist and racist jokes in Silicon Valley, but hardly enough”? Are you kidding me?

[badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com]

Taken in my terms, the article does indeed assert that the system is racist.

Your terms, however, are more academic than operational. I'll take a guess that you believe there must be a power element to racism given my limited interaction on the topic with you?

[jonathankorman.livejournal.com]

more academic than operational

I take the point, but that's a White guy's objection. When people of color, and many Whites making an effort to oppose racism, refer to “racism” this is their animating principle. Which is why I say the term is contested.

In the Civil Rights Era, many people — including, I think, most anti-racist activists — naïvely presumed that racist injustice was purely a consequence of racist bigotry. That's why we call it “arcism”, implying a bigoted system of belief. But as Reis correctly observes, we can have profound inequities without bigotry. We need a name for this phenomenon, and I believe that it's much more useful to employ the word “racism” for this purpose than to use it to refer to bigotry.

you believe there must be a power element to racism

That's a good supposition, but actually quite incorrect.

I actually think that the common identity politics formulation “racism = prejudice + power” is corrosive for a host of reasons, not least that it obscures the way that racist injustice can manifest without being grounded in the prejudice/bigotry of Whites.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

The power element's what separates it from prejudice. It's why Robert Mugabe is a racist black man but the NOI is simply a hate group based on prejudice. In Zimbabwe blacks monopolize power and exclude whites, here whites monopolize power and exclude blacks. Not that arguments with fact, logic, or reason will matter in this kind of discussion when certain ideologies beginning with l are involved.

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

I find it much more useful to take them to refer to injustice.

Um, that's nice? Whether you find it useful or not doesn't really matter much. You wanting to define terms in some particular way is great for you, not so great for communicating with others.

[jonathankorman.livejournal.com]

That's why I pointed directly to the trickiness of the meaning of the word “racism.” It does not have an obvious clear shared meaning. There are indeed a lot of people who take it to be synonymous with bigotry. There are a lot of people who will insist that bigotry only against people of color is the only correct meaning. There are many more who use it to mean systemic inequity. Contested.

We all agree that racism is bad, which leads us to disagree about what this bad “racism” thing is.

Reid tells us that yes, there are these striking inequities in his industry, but no, they aren't “racism”. Boy is that a relief! I was starting to worry that there was a serious problem here. If the leaders of his industry had the wrong attitude, that would call for the moral urgency of the word “racism” but since his industry is just driving out people of color without bigotry it's just ... well, what would you call an overwhelming systemic inequity that ensures that leadership in the industry is composed almost entirely of White faces, if not “racism”?

[meus-ovatio.livejournal.com]

I'm just gonna go ahead and copy and paste every last comment stream on this topic and get it over with.

[eracerhead.livejournal.com]

We have two competing theories. One is that deliberate racisms keeps people out. Another is that white men are simply the ones that show up.

He leaves out institutional racism, and then goes about defining that very thing without calling it what it is.

[jonathankorman.livejournal.com]

Yeah. Odd to find a pretty decent brief description of some of the mechanisms of institutional racism in the context of such a shallow understanding of antiracist theory and practice.

[meus-ovatio.livejournal.com]

They only care about not seeing or using the r word.

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

Or maybe they care about being accurate.

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

So what? As long as you understand what he's saying, why do you care if he uses a particular word or not?

[lions-wings.livejournal.com]

some combination of aptitude and effort

Hey guys, what is the idea that you can tell how hardworking someone is and how much potential they have by the color of their skin?

I know there's a word for it, I just can't think of it.

[lions-wings.livejournal.com]

(Sorry for snark, but seriously, the solution is "hire blindly," which suggests that some applicants are being ignored and some selected purely on the basis of who the interviewer identifies with.)

(And then the language in the article just gets unfortunate.)

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

Since that's one of the solutions presented in the article, I'm not sure what your issue is.

[pastorlenny.livejournal.com]

but hardly enough to believe that people like Michael Arrington or Paul Graham are lying when they say that they are colorblind. I think that – in the absence of any counterevidence – we should take them at their word.

Yup, this is how we do psychology. We ask people if they want to kill their fathers and screw their mothers.

And I love the Moneyball reference. Does everyone realize the movie is fictional?

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

And I love the Moneyball reference. Does everyone realize the movie is fictional?

I'm sure you can explain what you mean by "fictional" since it is in fact based on real events and real people. I'm pretty sure no one thinks it's a documentary, so you can't be referring to it simply being not that.

Yup, this is how we do psychology. We ask people if they want to kill their fathers and screw their mothers.

I'm pretty sure psychologists don't assume everyone's lying either. Do you have some other alternative to suggest?

[pastorlenny.livejournal.com]

Loosely based on real events.

Yes. The entire history of clinical methodologies.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

Nah, I think it's pretty clear racism does have a lot to do with it. The people that run those companies would be rather unlikely to accept smart, astute, tech-savvy blacks in their companies for the same reason that capitalism has always been the best friend and handmaiden of racism since time immemorial.

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

Because you say so.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

I provide facts, consistent definition, and an intellectually honest way of discussing politics, you mean.

[peristaltor.livejournal.com]

I'm not so sure.

VCs are mostly white men giving large amounts of money to _____ with a good idea. The question that the article dances around but fails, I think, to answer well, is why would anyone give money to anyone else?

Here we find the blinded symphony auditions helpful. To gauge the ability of a musician, the musician need only play.

But how does one gauge the ability of anyone in a vast array of businesses focusing on computers? One does this the way one does this in other snap-decision contexts, by seeing how much in common a applicant has with the VC. The more similarities they share, the easier it is for both of them to gauge their social cues. Sharing social cues helps both evaluate the possibility of working together.

Given the incredibly quick evaluations described in the article, it should come as no surprise that like gravitates towards like as a simple unconscious expedience, a short cut that sadly but obviously cuts short those who don't bring the right skin to the game.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

Meaning in other words the fundamental assumption remains that blacks can be anything but successful computer entrepreneurs.

[prock.livejournal.com]

The problem with both of these theories is that the math just doesn’t work.

This seems to be a fantastic assertion.

Racism has compounding effects. Learning to read a year latter propagates throughout your entire life. As with any compounding, it only takes a little bit of racism to over time have dramatic negative results. For example, consider someone who faces a kind of racism which reduces outcomes by just 1% every year. This level of racism is certainly not anything like slavery, or Jim Crow laws. It might be due to lack of attention in school, or lack of nutrition at home. It might be due to too much television because of overworked parents, whatever.

This relatively minor level of racism, compounded over 25 years leads to an outcome reduced to 77.8%.

The math does work.

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

Racism has compounding effects.

Citation needed.

It might be due to lack of attention in school, or lack of nutrition at home. It might be due to too much television because of overworked parents, whatever.

How are you tying any of that to race?