On personal responsibility

[blue-mangos.livejournal.com]

Most political debates come down to right vs. left. In our current political atmosphere this is more evident than ever. The gap between us has widened to the point that we are no longer hearing each other, we are no longer listening to the words, but rather assigning characters of how we feel the other side is, how we feel they view us. We seem to be expected to all speak and stand for our side, that our political ideologies are what define us. Some will take this entry as me speaking for the left. I am not, these are solely my personal views. Mostly born out of being too lengthy to include as a comment elsewhere ;o)

There has been a lot of talk lately of personal responsibility. Of knowing we are powerful and therefore capable of pulling ourselves up by our bootstraps. That everyone receives opportunities in life and it is up to us to control what we do with them. That may be true to an extent but not only does not everyone receive the same opportunities but not everyone is able to make the most of them. Self-sufficiency and determination are very admirable traits but not possessing them, or not in the same quantities as others does not make one lesser of a person. Sometimes people have doubts and insecurities, and sometimes the position we find ourselves in only magnifies those. We can't leave those people behind simply because they were unable to rise to someones personal view of what a person should do in those circumstances.

I believe absolutely that we should all try our best in life, that we should keep going, keep trying. I just also believe that sometimes people fail through no fault of their own. And in today's political and economic climate that is more true than ever. The world is already set up as sink or swim, I would just prefer to have lifeguards in place to prevent those who will sink. Because some will. Of course there will be some who don't even try to swim but there will be many who will try their very best and still drown. Because not everyone possesses the same abilities and not everyone gets the same chances. Expecting everyone to be able to rise to the occasion shows an admirable faith in fellow mankind but it is often unrealistic and does not provide the help needed for those who are unable to do so. 

We all fall. If the measure of a person is what they do when they fall then the measure of a society should be in how we treat those who have fallen. No one would let a friend fall without offering to help. This should be extended to strangers as well. Private charities are  wonderful but they can only do so much. We need better government systems in place to provide this help. And that right there is what the debate boils down to. Many of you believe that social programs from the government lead to a nanny state, and that leads to us being controlled. But the government already does control a great portion of our lives, through laws and regulations. To balk at this, to draw the line here leaves people out in the cold. That is what I want prevented.

I don't agree with everything OWS stands for. Or more accurately, I think there needs to be a clearer message, a clearer focus. But I can understand the anger and I do support the need for change. Because people ARE drowning. And to let them, to say it is solely up to them to save themselves is unacceptable to me. There is no shame in needing a helping hand and there should be no qualms about making sure one is provided.

X-posted from my journal as SOMEONE won't get his ass back here to debate it.

Comments

[notmrgarrison.livejournal.com]

Hand out free food, and the lines get longer every week, as more people hear about the free food.

[spaz-own-joo.livejournal.com]

Until the line length becomes sufficiently deterrent to reach an equilibrium.

"Nobody goes there anymore. It's too crowded." - Yogi Berra

[soliloquy76.livejournal.com]

Don't hand out anything, and people will take it (by force, if necessary).

[sealwhiskers.livejournal.com]

It's not really good analogy as there are requirements set in place for eligibility and certain results indicate that investing in people makes for far more productive citizens than by not doing it.

[pastorlenny.livejournal.com]

Empirical evidence?

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

Not really, this is not how things worked in societies that actually have done this. Not that people would actually make a statement like this with any example set in motion and acted upon by actual human beings in mind. I mean when we're discussing societies with doles like this they're usually from thousands of years ago and reflect social conditions that no longer exist in the rich countries where people bitch about welfare states.

[lilenth.livejournal.com]

Give out fair jobs and watch the line double every second.

Nobody apart from a handful of people want a life dependent on the state for every scrap of bread they eat. A life on benefits only sounds good to those who don't understand how much of a pittance such help is, or the stigma and bigotry those who need help face.

People with good jobs or lots of money look at those who need help and think it's an endless holiday of no responsibility where everything is paid for. When (there is no if for the vast majority of people) they need the safety net, they will find out how wrong they are; yet many will still cling to their belief that they aren't just the same as the people they've put down for years.

Try living on something that is not even ten percent of the money considered to be what those in poverty have. Then talk about free food.

[sealwhiskers.livejournal.com]

As I have witnessed a lot of successful programs personally - fact is, many people have really bad patches, a crutch at the right time has often proven to create truly great and productive citizens for decades and decades on.

I'm not sure this is often taken into consideration, the investment into all kinds of citizens that a state can make, not just state business loans or kick-off money to the healthy who want to start a private business, (which also is a fantastic idea with my support), but for those that may look like a risky investment.

As for free food lines as an analogy. The "nanny state" actually has pretty strict criteria set in place for who is eligible. A big survey last year in one of the most exemplified nanny states of the world showed that actually *very* few using state help were fakers. The vast majority used it for a limited time and in such a constructive way that it made them good investments.

Sometimes I want to say: Yes, we progressives DO believe in self worth, bootstraps, positive thinking and personal responsibility, we believe in ALL that, and *then* some.

[blue-mangos.livejournal.com]

Yes, we progressives DO believe in self worth, bootstraps, positive thinking and personal responsibility, we believe in ALL that, and *then* some.

Exactly this. We can believe in all that and still want the assistance available for those who need it. One does not cancel out the other.

[badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com]

Because people ARE drowning. And to let them, to say it is solely up to them to save themselves is unacceptable to me. There is no shame in needing a helping hand and there should be no qualms about making sure one is provided.

Here's the problem with this - we bend over backwards to keep people from failing. We offer an old age pension, we offer food stamps to anyone who inquires about them (http://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-10-956T), we offer Medicare to every senior, Medicaid to anyone who's poor enough to the point where nearly everyone who needs insurance can get it.

At what point are we allowed to say "enough!"?

[blue-mangos.livejournal.com]

Not a this point. The US falls far short in terms of providing social programs. If what you had was sufficient there wouldn't be the problems so many are facing today. I don't know where the line is. But it's not where it's drawn now.

[surferelf.livejournal.com]

Here's the problem with this - we bend over backwards to keep people from failing.

Not very far, though. We (being the USA) won't be winning any limbo contests.

We offer an old age pension,

This is a good thing. We have made great strides toward allowing our elderly to live with dignity.

we offer food stamps to anyone who inquires about them,

This is a good thing. We have made great strides toward eliminating hunger.

we offer Medicare to every senior,

Which they pay for.

Medicaid to anyone who's poor enough to the point where nearly everyone who needs insurance can get it.

Except for a not-insignificant chunk of the 40-50 million uninsured, who make too much to qualify but not enough to afford insurance.

At what point are we allowed to say "enough!"?

I'm cool with calling "enough" after we get universal health care.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

I agree. The principle of the welfare state has been one of the true strengths of post-WWII liberal democracy in the West. Remove it, and people find out what politics was like without such systems. It's something we no longer remember and I doubt that another round of Eugene V. Debs v. Palmer would do the USA much good. This time the more hardline factions will do a lot better. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that those that want welfare systems removed altogether seem to be outright asking for a revolution to happen when people realize this means starvation.

[yes-justice.livejournal.com]

I want to see people die in the streets. Especially elderly and children. I prefer rampant disease and epidemics. I like cholera and dysentery. I want a nation of uneducated starving sick people being laughed at by the few.

Cull the herd!

[mintogrubb.livejournal.com]

I sense that my irony meter is burning a hole in my pocket, but I think you are not far from seeing it all happen .

[mintogrubb.livejournal.com]

We all fall. If the measure of a person is what they do when they fall then the measure of a society should be in how we treat those who have fallen.

DQ , please.
And I also recommend this, if I may .

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

1) Granted.
2) Granted.
3) Yay!

If you're not speaking for the left or anyone but yourself then STOP SAYING "WE"

[montecristo.livejournal.com]

You're not talking about "just me" anymore when you start talking about "we" and "us" and what "we" can and can't do with "those people" and "our money." There's your problem, in a nutshell. Both the "left" and the "right" have the same collectivist delusion, they just have different hobbyhorses. The right's tends to be war and nationalism; the left's tends to be economic and social, but both are irrational collectivism.

If you want to speak for yourself then speak for yourself and quit saying "we" and "our" when you talk about what you want to do and with what you want to do it, especially when you are demanding the authority to force "us" to do as you think best. Try spending your own damned money, or convince people to give you theirs voluntarilly. Better yet, earn the command of more resources by trading with others. There's nothing like serving other people to really give you an understanding of someone else's true needs and wants. Stop telling me what to do with my money. I don't know about you, but from MY personal experience, most of the people who have designs on my money have never dirtied their prissy little hands with anything messier than a voting ballot. Big heroes, them. I'm not impressed with anyone's ability to vote to spend money they didn't earn themselves, especially after they've "delegated" all of the messy details to politicians and bureaucrats.

I don't know about you but I spend my own damned resources and I get my hands dirty helping several people who would be much worse off in this world without my assistance and giving a damn. Unlike many of the Compassion Fascists, I actually get into some trenches and see what the government's Franensteinian poverty factories actually produce, instead of going on plattitudes, folk-economics, and self-congratulatory wishful thinking. I've watched bureaucrats and their programs do everything for the poor except get off their backs. Once these bastards get a "client" on the hook, they don't let go, and their behavior is morally despicable because they've blinded themselves in order to delude themselves that they are "part of the solution." They won't acknowledge when they've become part of the problem instead of the solution, mostly because, having government authority behind them means they don't have to do so. That's how power corrupts. I've watched them grind people up and waste resources I've spent trying to keep friends out of their slimy clutches.

I've seen the economic foolishness of the U.S. government put people out of work and undermine the economic future of everyone. I've watched the nationalist jackasses of the right make war all over the globe and then turn around and pretend to have no idea where all the blood treasure and honor went. I've watched the economic illiterates (not all of the OWS people qualify) "occupy" 11 Wall Street in understandable anger but blindly miss where the actual stealing is happening, two blocks north, at 22 Liberty Street.

You say, "No one would let a friend fall without offering to help," but I call "Bullshit," because you demonstrate how little you actually believe that everytime you advocate that the government force people to do as you believe and not as they would. Frankly, the belief that you know better how to spend the money that I and others have earned is repulsive, especially when people are so ready to write off my experiences as "never have been poor," or "just don't care about people," even though they have never met me and do not seem to suspect that "not having been poor" might mean I have some insight about how to avoid that problem.

To me, your second and third paragraphs look like complete obliviousness. It's not about "compassion" or the lack of it. If the doctor is killing the patient with his "compassion," no matter what his intentions are he must stop. There's a reason why the Hypocratic Oath starts with the promise to "first, do no harm."

Re: If you're not speaking for the left or anyone but yourself then STOP SAYING "WE"

[stewstewstewdio.livejournal.com]

Both the "left" and the "right" have the same collectivist delusion

Thanks for sharing your wisdom with the Talk_Politics collective. We will collectively discuss this and get back to you. (?)

[sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com]

All in all, well said.

However, if I were an asshole, I'd be asking you by what criteria do you judge whether someone is a better or worse person. I strongly suspect that your answers would differ from mine.

[blue-mangos.livejournal.com]

Possibly. I don't judge someones worth on their financial successes in life. But I suspect you don't either.

[vnsplshr.livejournal.com]

"We can't leave those people behind simply because they were unable to rise to someones personal view of what a person should do in those circumstances."

Agreed. We should also avoid making government policies and programs so bulky and inefficient in our attempts to help those who need it.

"Private charities are wonderful but they can only do so much. We need better government systems in place to provide this help."

Or we need government to do much less and leave funds in the hands of the people to do a better job through charities. Government is very inefficient with the cash, compared to charity.

"But the government already does control a great portion of our lives, through laws and regulations."

So back the train up.... don't lay more track.

[soliloquy76.livejournal.com]

Or we need government to do much less and leave funds in the hands of the people to do a better job through charities. Government is very inefficient with the cash, compared to charity.

The problem with this is that it's open to massive abuse via cronyism and other forms of corruption. If we could somehow minimize that, I'd be all for it.

[lilenth.livejournal.com]

I thought this was talk_politics, not talk_classism. Apparently a few people think it's the latter.

[soliloquy76.livejournal.com]

All political spheres are welcome here, as well as topics there are even tangentially related to politics.

[korean-guy-01.livejournal.com]

Some people choose to drown. Some people choose not wipe their own butt. Some people choose not to wipe their own butt and attempt to coerce others to do it for them.

[kylinrouge.livejournal.com]

There are more negative externalities from the bootstraps ideology than there are giving people assistance, temporary or otherwise. And the government's job is to mitigate negative externalities.

It really doesn't get anymore complicated than that.

"Most political debates come down to right vs. left."

[squidb0i.livejournal.com]

They absolutely do not.


Many of us may pretend otherwise, but an arbitrary bipolar political spectrum cannot hope to express the reality of political thought.

Re: "Most political debates come down to right vs. left."

[dv8nation.livejournal.com]

Also, many political situations have more than Side A and Side B to them.

Reading the comments to many of these posts..

[squidb0i.livejournal.com]

.. I often begin to wonder if it wouldn't be best if we just gave conservatives Texas and wished them good luck.

They could call it Jesustan or Bushtopia or whatever and institute a flat tax and eradicate the minimum wage, regulation, and abortion rights and send their gays to re-education camps and carry around rocket launchers and drive 37 ton pickup trucks with no emission systems on privately owned roads.

Then, at the very least, they'd have a chance to see how badly their policies fail in the real world without fucking over the whole country global economy in the process.

And it would amuse me greatly to watch their refugees flee back to the US.

Re: Reading the comments to many of these posts..

[soliloquy76.livejournal.com]

Ha! Funny you should mention that:

http://talk-politics.livejournal.com/1213833.html?thread=96515721&style=mine#t96515721

[evildamsel.livejournal.com]

Let's just admit that the American dream is dead. I look around my friends. We took personal responsibility. We went to college, we did well. Many of us went to graduate school of some flavor. Most of us are in dire financial straits. Student loans are crushing. Opportunities are few. Health insurance is if you're lucky. I am right now but when my husband will have to quit his job to finish his masters, we will have to give up our health insurance since his job insures us and we can't afford to pay the premiums my job asks for.

How do we bootstrap ourselves out?

I'm sure I'm going to hear oh yeah anecdata. Sure. Yes. But this is what I'm hearing all around me. This is what every story on the 99% tumblr is about. It's not that we don't want to work. It's that we don't have the opportunities that would make ANY difference. [Yes yes caveat, some people probably don't want to work. There are always those. But that's not the majority problem.]

[dv8nation.livejournal.com]

You ask that as if there's some magic answer that will work for everyone. There isn't. Each person's situation is different.

I was in that situation earlier this year. I applied for a job overseas and got it. Funny the doors that open when you're willing to move just about anywhere. My friends who are still in that situation? Funny how many of them are still in their small Rust Belt hometowns.

[kardashev.livejournal.com]

Most political debates come down to right vs. left.

It's kind of funny too. Both liberalism and conservatism along with religious and secular humanism are swiftly becoming outmoded ideologies as we transition to a Type I civilization. In less than a hundred years from now, the world will take on aspects from the nightmares of both camps.

But to more forward thinking people, it will be a new Golden Age. Such is progress.

[abomvubuso.livejournal.com]

Just curious, have you been reading a book that mentions a Type I civilisation? Because you seem to talk about it all the time, so I thought if you're reading such a book, maybe you could share? ;)