Inter-Christian warfare.

[meus-ovatio.livejournal.com]

Political narratives often have the unfortunate side-effect of decontextualizing and removing people from real conditions. When we discuss politics, we often don't think of who people actually are, we think of them purely in economic or political terms. Sadly, this misses the fact that poor people are overwhelmingly religious, and in this country, Christian. We often forget this in our political discussions. Single mothers with children are demonized, and often in incoherent ways.

For instance, when speaking of abortion, perhaps we should look into the overwhelmingly conservative nature of poor social politics. I would be willing to bet that many of us (including me) often think of poor mother's as somehow having lots of babies, but also aborting lots of babies. For instance, abortion is villified as people not owning up to the consequences of their actions. Having babies is also villified. So, for the poor single mother, no matter what she does, she is irresponsible. This often takes place while middle-class folk completely and conveniently forget that they get government subsidies for their babies as well, and the cost of subsidizing middle-class babies far outstrips the cost of subsidizing poor babies.

The important thing here, is that this conversation of demonization occurs between Christians. Well-off Christians and poor Christians. Poor Christians, who demographically and statistically speaking, are far more religiously active and devout than the well-off kind. Poor Christian women don't get abortions quite so much as we are led to believe.

This post is not meant to advocate for any particular policy on abortion or welfare or whatever. I mean simply to highlight our habits of conversation, as Christians, largely speaking to and about Christians. Perhaps more productive conversations could be had if people took the time to consciously remember that they are very probably talking about another Christian, and then ponder what that entails for their responsibilities in political discussion.

Comments

[the-rukh.livejournal.com]

Its humans doing it to other humans too. Is there a specific purpose you're setting up for pointing out that a majority of the country is Christians?

[meus-ovatio.livejournal.com]

Its humans doing it to other humans too. Is there a specific purpose you're setting up for pointing out that a majority of the country is Christians?
Because it more accurately contextualizes the framework of discussion between real people with real identities. As was explained.

[unnamed525.livejournal.com]

Why does a Christian speaking about another Christian entail any different responsibilities for the speaker than if they were speaking about a non-Christian?

[meus-ovatio.livejournal.com]

Why does a Christian speaking about another Christian entail any different responsibilities for the speaker than if they were speaking about a non-Christian?
Because non-Christians don't have Christian obligations. If you want to ask me about irrelevant intellectual minorities, go ahead, but they're really quite irrelevant to the whole thing. Perhaps atheists need to contextualize their discussions as well, along their own form of obligations. But it wouldn't matter anyway, atheists are irrelevant.

[mrbogey.livejournal.com]

'So, for the poor single mother, no matter what she does, she is irresponsible'

Hint, the actions that lead to the birth of a kid don't begin post-conception.

'This often takes place while middle-class folk completely and conveniently forget that they get government subsidies for their babies as well'

Well considering they pay into the system they're getting back what they paid into it.

'This post is not meant to advocate for any particular policy on abortion or welfare or whatever.'

Yea? And? The standard Christian response is "love them but don't encourage them to keep doing wrong."

However in today's world, disapproval is not allowed. The worst thing you can do apparently is tell someone they fucked up and need to quit it.

[meus-ovatio.livejournal.com]

Well considering they pay into the system they're getting back what they paid into it.
This is simply false. The cost of tax expenditures for child credits is not simply an equal equation between receipts and expenditures.

Hint, the actions that lead to the birth of a kid don't begin post-conception.
So what? What's the conclusion? That poor babies shouldn't get help because of Mother's poor decisions? And that this standard should apply what? Equally? Unequally?

However in today's world, disapproval is not allowed. The worst thing you can do apparently is tell someone they fucked up and need to quit it.
No, in today's world, personal disapproval is irrelevant to policy, unless of course you think policy is the instrument by which we should morally shepherd a nation. That is, if you think government is more about being a parental punisher than being a government.

[sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com]

However in today's world, disapproval is not allowed. The worst thing you can do apparently is tell someone they fucked up and need to quit it.

Shh... somebody might hear you

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

Really? It seems to me we hear a lot of disapproval from the hypocrites who want to engage in their sins and condemn them, too.

[pastorlenny.livejournal.com]

You raise a potentially good point. The problem is that Protestant evangelicals are so schismatic that they don't recognize any type of Christian other than the kind they very specifically believe themselves to be. A Cainian Baptist would not recognize an unwed mother as "one of us."

[onefatmusicnerd.livejournal.com]

When you replace tradition with individual relationships you really are give people carte blanche to make shit up. I mean really, were in the room with me when Jesus was telling me to procreate with a ninth grade physical education class? So how would you know what my personal relationship with Jesus is? It is mine, not yours!

[kylinrouge.livejournal.com]

I was gonna come in and say this. None of them see that they have obligations under their faith because they believe in a special form of Christianity that they can rationalize and supplant with whatever belief they want.

I can't talk much though since I believe personalized religion is the next logical step for all religion. It's been like that since the reformation, where reformers insisted on a 'bible black' study of the bible whereas the Catholic church preyed on people's ignorance with fancy shows about hell, trying to scare them into believing. They didn't care that they were too illiterate to read the bible and had no intention of educating them like the reformers, just following along with whatever their Catholic overlords thought up was good enough.

Put your faith in Pickle Jesus to save your soul!

[sophia-sadek.livejournal.com]

[kardashev.livejournal.com]

For instance, abortion is villified as people not owning up to the consequences of their actions. Having babies is also villified. So, for the poor single mother, no matter what she does, she is irresponsible.

Yes, they do need to make up their goddamn minds about this. I'd like to add that using contraception to avoid pregnancy is also vilified.

[meus-ovatio.livejournal.com]

They're too busy being the embittered genius to worry about that. Thankfully for everyone else, they'll end up on the rocking chair an embittered and irrelevant old fist-shaker, like millions before them, and millions more after. Never seen such moral satisfaction in such pre-school mentalities.

[mintogrubb.livejournal.com]

Word!

[rick-day.livejournal.com]

Dude, you did a great job fencing with the hair splitters in this post.

Well played!

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

Maybe things would be better if people didn't over-generalize too.

I agree.

[sophia-sadek.livejournal.com]

People who over-generalize should be shot.

[mintogrubb.livejournal.com]

The world is a wonderful place, unless you are poor.

No, i did not have any kids, if anyone wants to know.

Your kids may go to schools where they stand little or no chance of being knifed on the way home from school, but I cannot guarantee that this sort of thing won't happen to my kids , so I don't have any.

A lot of women are looking at what the world has to offer them, and then looking at the financial, career and social costs of having kids, and saying 'no thanks'.

I see a population crash coming , where not enough school leavers will step into our jobs when people my age retire.

So like, i would like my fellow christians to think seriously about their attitudes to lower income people - especially women , when it comes to voting time.

What is ~your~ candidate doing to help a working mom get a job and keep it ?
How serious are they about getting crèches and parental leave for new parents at work?

The sooner the politicos get their act together and start providing, the easier it will be to recover from the baby shortage.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

A good post, though it's sowing seeds on the rocky soil of Evangelical-schismatic stubbornness.

An interesting observation...

[sophia-sadek.livejournal.com]

... from a fellow of Peter.

We can tell that they are Christian...

[sophia-sadek.livejournal.com]

The strongest indicator of Christian faith is hatred for other Christians. We can recognize their Christian aspect in how they hate one another.

One of the things that I really admire about the legendary Jesus is that he would never have been caught dead espousing the Christian faith.

Re: We can tell that they are Christian...

[raichu100.livejournal.com]

This is definitely a painting-with-a-broad-brush thing. But as for certain groups of Christians, yes, this is definitely (and sadly) true.

[yes-justice.livejournal.com]

"Mr. Vidal, what do you think of Christians?"

"I've never met one"

[raichu100.livejournal.com]

As for the point of your post, I like it.

Something that bothers me, though: the sentiment that "So, for the poor single mother, no matter what she does, she is irresponsible." This completely glosses over the fact that sex is often a choice. It bothers me that sex is assumed to be a constant that no one can help. Rape is a different issue - I'm not opening that can of worms here. But not 100% of pregnant women are rape victims. Not even close.

[meus-ovatio.livejournal.com]

Sex is a choice inasmuch as breathing is a choice. We're not rational spiritual beings living on a cloud of happy sauce.