Obesity and Responsibility
14/10/11 00:43![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
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talkpoliticsBritain has one of the worst records in Europe and even in the developed world when it comes to obesity and over weight.
And people have got to do something, says a Government Minister.
Yeah - people. not a Government Department, or someone else like ' the media' or ' the food industry' - ordinary people have got to get off their collective duff and do things different. Ooooh ! Scarey ...
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23997830-obesity-crisis-solved-eat-less-says-health-secretary.do
But is it?
Seriously, I am in the Green Party, a hard core supporter of the most left wing party in the House, hailed by many news pundits as ' the real opposition' to the Coalition in terms of its stated policies - but I honestly feel that Society is kidding itself if it does not wake up to the idea that Personal Responsibility does not come into it.
We in Britain seem to think that if we spend more money on telling people to eat more greens, stop smoking and walk to work a bit more, that more people will take more notice.
Get a grip. People are naturally lazy. Most of us know all that stuff, but don't actually listen. It isn't more education on Recommended Daily Intakes that people need, it is more will power and commitment to follow a proper healthy eating regime.And it is not as if this sort of info isn't out there already. Most food is already labelled to within an inch of its life, but still too many of us are eating too much of the wrong sort of things even so.
It may be a sad reflection on our nation , but the fact is that nothing can save us from ourselves except us.
Ok, we may prevent more drink driving deaths by locking up the perpetrators, but locking people up for being overweight isn't really gonna work , is it? And as the article points out, the problem of obesity has real financial costs to the NHS and the country as a whole in terms of lost days at work, lower economic production and higher health costs.
But , if old fashioned 20th Century Socialists fail, what else can we turn to? The conservative answer seems to be that we need to learn to look after ourselves. Oh, I do agree. But the fact is - we don't! can people be made to behave, though ? I doubt it.see, we already have stopped selling some medication s in 100 pill bottles. that would be a lethal dose. We sell the drugs now in 20s - so if you want to kill yourself on sleeping pills, you just buy more boxes.
In my job , I have a medical once a year, and a couple of years back, I was told I was overweight, and needed to lose a few pounds - so I did! people were commenting on how much better I looked. But it was me who did it, not the company or the government. i got out the scales, learned how much was in a portion , reckoned up the calorific value and did the cutting down and cutting back.
And I don't really see how politicians can really influence poblic behaviour. Public opinion , yes- but public behaviour? What people actually do, not think or say - that is the challenge of our time. And it is one we are bound to lose, I feel, because people are basically lazy. or at least, I feel that laziness has reached a critical mass in Britain that will stop anything being changed.
Brits are too lazy to do something about our problems, and the Society that we have made has not encouraged the idea that we have to get tough and take things into our own hands. Quite the opposite. Some of us are smart, but most of us are doomed. Not enough of us care enough about ourselves to keep this country on its feet and ticking over nicely. And if the UK goes down the pan , it will have vast and lasting repercussions for the rest of the world, you mark my words - the world won't be that same without us :)
But what do others think ?
And people have got to do something, says a Government Minister.
Yeah - people. not a Government Department, or someone else like ' the media' or ' the food industry' - ordinary people have got to get off their collective duff and do things different. Ooooh ! Scarey ...
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23997830-obesity-crisis-solved-eat-less-says-health-secretary.do
But is it?
Seriously, I am in the Green Party, a hard core supporter of the most left wing party in the House, hailed by many news pundits as ' the real opposition' to the Coalition in terms of its stated policies - but I honestly feel that Society is kidding itself if it does not wake up to the idea that Personal Responsibility does not come into it.
We in Britain seem to think that if we spend more money on telling people to eat more greens, stop smoking and walk to work a bit more, that more people will take more notice.
Get a grip. People are naturally lazy. Most of us know all that stuff, but don't actually listen. It isn't more education on Recommended Daily Intakes that people need, it is more will power and commitment to follow a proper healthy eating regime.And it is not as if this sort of info isn't out there already. Most food is already labelled to within an inch of its life, but still too many of us are eating too much of the wrong sort of things even so.
It may be a sad reflection on our nation , but the fact is that nothing can save us from ourselves except us.
Ok, we may prevent more drink driving deaths by locking up the perpetrators, but locking people up for being overweight isn't really gonna work , is it? And as the article points out, the problem of obesity has real financial costs to the NHS and the country as a whole in terms of lost days at work, lower economic production and higher health costs.
But , if old fashioned 20th Century Socialists fail, what else can we turn to? The conservative answer seems to be that we need to learn to look after ourselves. Oh, I do agree. But the fact is - we don't! can people be made to behave, though ? I doubt it.see, we already have stopped selling some medication s in 100 pill bottles. that would be a lethal dose. We sell the drugs now in 20s - so if you want to kill yourself on sleeping pills, you just buy more boxes.
In my job , I have a medical once a year, and a couple of years back, I was told I was overweight, and needed to lose a few pounds - so I did! people were commenting on how much better I looked. But it was me who did it, not the company or the government. i got out the scales, learned how much was in a portion , reckoned up the calorific value and did the cutting down and cutting back.
And I don't really see how politicians can really influence poblic behaviour. Public opinion , yes- but public behaviour? What people actually do, not think or say - that is the challenge of our time. And it is one we are bound to lose, I feel, because people are basically lazy. or at least, I feel that laziness has reached a critical mass in Britain that will stop anything being changed.
Brits are too lazy to do something about our problems, and the Society that we have made has not encouraged the idea that we have to get tough and take things into our own hands. Quite the opposite. Some of us are smart, but most of us are doomed. Not enough of us care enough about ourselves to keep this country on its feet and ticking over nicely. And if the UK goes down the pan , it will have vast and lasting repercussions for the rest of the world, you mark my words - the world won't be that same without us :)
But what do others think ?
(no subject)
Date: 13/10/11 23:52 (UTC)I'm fairly certain smoking rates are down. My guess would be if there were a big ad campaign to get people to eat better and exercise more, it would have a noticeable effect.
(no subject)
Date: 14/10/11 00:23 (UTC)Kids no longer thing that cigs are as cool as e or dope is.
Probably due to the lack of exposure to fags in popular culture as much as anything else.
Big ad campaigns for ppl to eat 5 a day and eat less calories have gone on for years - and this sort of headline tells us how effective they were.
(no subject)
Date: 13/10/11 23:58 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 14/10/11 00:07 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 14/10/11 00:07 (UTC)But the Hell with them. I quit smoking years ago and started to gain weight as a result. But I got tired of that and consulted my doctor who helped set me straight about my metabolism. I handled things of my own accord and I'm glad of it.
Cheers! :D
(no subject)
Date: 14/10/11 00:19 (UTC)mind u , some ppl deserved to be wound up, and I expect they are.
(no subject)
Date: 14/10/11 06:50 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 14/10/11 07:50 (UTC)Just like some people cannot give up booze, these types cannot give up having a pop at me. They are incapably addicted, and are best left alone.
Having read some of the replies, I have seen a range of sensible opinion and informative anecdotal experience. Like some others here, I do believe in Social Housing , State Education and Social healthcare in a civilised society.
But it has always been up to me to keep my own room tidy, and get myself dressed in the morning and hand in my homework on time since I went off to school.
Now I am big enough to have a job, it is also down to me to choose what I eat, and how much I put on the plate. And although I used to be able to eat like a horse when I was 20, I can't seem to do that these days. Rising income and falling metabolic rate have meant that i needed a strict diet regime for the first time ever.
But yeah , being a responsible adult isn't easy, but it is worth while.
(no subject)
Date: 14/10/11 23:44 (UTC)Sort of like your nightmares about "mavericks" lol? And which mavericks, btw? Are you referring to Brett Maverick (http://jaydeanhcr.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/jamesgarner2.jpg) or the Dallas Mavericks (http://www.nba.com/mavericks/index_main.html)? XD
(no subject)
Date: 14/10/11 20:21 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 14/10/11 23:46 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 14/10/11 00:16 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 14/10/11 00:25 (UTC)Seriously, though - obesity is costing the NHS enough to get ministers in a flap. Watch this space !
(no subject)
Date: 14/10/11 00:28 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 14/10/11 01:20 (UTC)Seriously, though, I agree with the general premise that obesity is an individual issue, and each person has responsibility for his/her own health in this regard.
(no subject)
Date: 14/10/11 01:39 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 14/10/11 02:40 (UTC)So why have obesity rates risen since, say, the 1980s (there was no food shortage in the 80s)? And why do countries with rising incomes experience more obesity, heart disease and diabetes (see: China)? While human proclivities have remained the same, the social environment around us has also changed in a variety of ways that tend to make us fat. That tells me that the solutions to this problem also lie in manipulating the social environment. It is great if individuals have the drive, will-power or determination to make change in their lives without anything changing in the greater society -- but that isn't going to solve the long-term problem.
(no subject)
Date: 14/10/11 02:42 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 14/10/11 04:11 (UTC)There is also a correlation to work hours and economy.
While it is each individual's ultimate responsibility when it comes to life style choices, I think it's pretty preposterous to say it's only laziness and individual flaws. The same studies have shown that different people react tremendously different to various choices. Life is not fair and to point at fat people and stereotype their personalities, be they brits or not is pretty dumb and won't solve any form of obesity problem a country might have.
Understanding and motivation can go miles, where this post doesn't.
(no subject)
Date: 16/10/11 00:24 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 16/10/11 04:28 (UTC)Some ppl with weight issues can change things just by tapping into discipline..but for some, like this woman, I really couldn't tell her what to do with great ease...other than win a lot of money I guess....
(no subject)
Date: 14/10/11 04:34 (UTC)The same thing is going to happen to food. I don't want you to stop choosing to eat a Big Mac if you want, but McDonalds definitely should not be allowed to spruik their wares on TV at 4pm on a weekday.
(no subject)
Date: 14/10/11 07:53 (UTC)That is interesting. I might do a whole OP on that...
(no subject)
Date: 14/10/11 04:44 (UTC)Now, I believe that socialized medicine is the correct approach to medical care... in general. I believe that health care is a right, not a privilege. I believe that if someone develops leukemia or is in an accident or gets pneumonia, then a civilized society will not let them go without help. I don't believe in kicking a dog when it's down, and I don't believe in punishing people who are already suffering from illness or injury by slapping them with huge medical debt.
But when a person is obese, and has been told by the doctor again and again, "You need to change your diet, and you need to start exercising," but the patient refuses to listen? And this patient develops major complications from hypertension, heart disease, sleep apnea, type-2 diabetes, and more, all because the patient won't take care of himself? COME ON.
Some illnesses happen no matter what we do with our health. Some non-smokers get lung cancer, and some smokers never get lung cancer. Some obese people never become diabetic, and some thin people develop type-2 diabetes. (Yes, thin people who are in shape CAN get type-2 diabetes. There's a genetic component.)
Your health is like Russian Roulette. Your choices can either add or remove bullets from the gun. Exercise regularly, eat healthy, don't get excessive sun exposure, don't drink too much alcohol, don't smoke... and you remove a lot of bullets from the gun. BUT you can't remove them all. Some people who do everything right will get horribly sick. And some people who do everything wrong will be lucky enough to get that one slot with no bullet. But once you average it all out... the numbers don't lie.
No, we can't say, across the board, that every fat person is responsible for the increased costs in health care. However, overall, they are.
I work on a hospital campus, and I see the people who get wheeled in on a daily basis. They needed to purchase EXTRA-EXTRA-WIDE wheelchairs! A whole fleet of them! Not just the slightly-wider-than-normal. I mean, these things will sit two normal adults comfortably. That's just sad. And it's not the cost of the wheelchairs that concerns me. It's that these hugely fat people are the ones with the most illnesses, the most complications, and these illnesses are chronic and ongoing... unless they LOSE SOME WEIGHT.
My father-in-law... I love the man, but he did this to himself: type-2 diabetic (insulin dependent with bad circulation and neuropathy), has had two heart attacks, needs oxygen and a CPAP for sleep apnea, and can't walk from one end of the house to the other without getting horribly out of breath. He's 60. He's obese. He got this way purely due to horrible eating habits and almost no exercise, and he's finally admitted it. (I used to watch him fry and eat a whole pound of bacon as a snack.) And there are plenty more like him.
Now... my mother. Eats a balanced diet. She's got a bad knee from an old injury, so she swims instead of walking or running. She does a half-mile to a mile of swimming three to five times a week, sometimes more. She has no chronic conditions, is on NO medications, fits normal clothes, and is still enjoying an active life. Other than giving birth to two kids, and then having one kidney infection at the age of 50, she's never needed anything from the medical system more extensive than a flu shot. She's also 60 years old... same age as my father-in-law.
It's lifestyle. It's diet and exercise. And yes, the financial burden of obesity is huge... but so is the toll obesity takes on quality of life. My mother travels. She goes hiking with me. She enjoys swimming. She still loves to dance. My father-in-law can't do any of those things. He's afraid to even travel the two hours to our house for holidays because of the strain on his body, and leaving his CPAP and other equipment behind would be too risky. (His isn't easily portable.)
So... what's the solution? Sadly, there's no easy one. We need to change the culture of fitness. We need to change people's attitudes towards food and exercise. And honestly, I don't think it will happen.
Statistics prove true, time and time again.
(no subject)
Date: 14/10/11 07:55 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 14/10/11 13:27 (UTC)Actually smoking related illness costs countries way more than obesity related illness does.
(no subject)
Date: 14/10/11 13:50 (UTC)http://www.webmd.com/diet/news/20030515/obesity-costs-rival-smoking
The other thing is that the taxes on tobacco products are rising, and people who use tobacco are often forced to pay higher insurance premiums, which (slightly) makes up for their burden on the system. We can't make fat people pay higher taxes.
But at the end of the day, I place just as much blame on smokers as obese people who refuse to try to lose weight. They're two separate problems stemming from the same sort of habit-based laziness AND based in established problems of both culture and poverty. (And no, I do not forget that obesity and smoking have significant ties to things such as poverty and culture, and I recognize that these are far more complex problems than they seem at first glance.)
(no subject)
Date: 14/10/11 14:30 (UTC)The US last time I checked spent way more on smoking related conditions than it does on obesity related conditions. As for the UK?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8086142.stm Cost of obesity.
http://www.healthinsurance.co.uk/news/2011/May/Smoking-drinking-and-obesity-costs-Britain-17.7-billion-a-year.html Total cost of obesity, drinking and smoking, minus cost of obesity, both of the others combined are at least two billion more than double the cost.
You're ignoring the issues of addiction. I do not smoke myself largely because one of my parents was addicted and I saw the long term issues first hand, people who cannot quit are not lazy, they're addicted. Saying people smoke because they're lazy, is like saying people take drugs because they're lazy.
(no subject)
Date: 14/10/11 07:38 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 14/10/11 07:53 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 14/10/11 18:40 (UTC)It is also one to which it is very hard to get a straight answer.
You have to ask what government IS first.
Date: 15/10/11 01:17 (UTC)Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
(no subject)
Date: 14/10/11 11:20 (UTC)That's unrealistic - and I'm sure plenty would say it's mean or unfair too - so it would never happen.
Like you said, it all comes down to will power. All the government regulations, information, incentives, encouragement, and ridicule combined aren't going to stop someone who doesn't want to be stopped.
(no subject)
Date: 14/10/11 13:25 (UTC)I'll refer you back to another comment I made: http://talk-politics.livejournal.com/1188595.html?thread=94320627#t94320627 which covers food deserts and the relative costs of processed and non-processed foods as well as their sugar and fat contents.
The problem is not personal responsibility, it's the lack of cheap healthy food available. Not to mention various social issues I am overweight because I am disabled. The UK has ten million disabled people a good percentage of whom are overweight because cuts to help for disabled people mean that they have to pay out of pocket for help and cannot spend more on good healthy food or a specialist in weight loss for disabled people.
Until I got really disabled? I was severely underweight, but for the last five years the NHS has flailed around and failed to help me. I cannot afford the help I need and don't get it through the services supposedly set up to help me because the governments scapegoating of disabled people has resulted in the local situation being such that next to no people with disabilities are receiving a fraction of the help they need if they receive any.
In short, stop stereotyping it as laziness and address the real issues, the food deserts, the lack of options for low income people and people with disabilities, the market gouging by companies who inflate healthy food for profit, and many many more issues that impact the average person in the UK.
(no subject)
Date: 14/10/11 15:08 (UTC)But you have to admit that plenty of people cause their own problems, too. And we never know who is a victim of circumstance, and who is causing their own problems. The problem is vast and complex... but from everything I've seen, there are plenty of willfully lazy and gluttonous fat-arses who have nobody to blame but themselves.
Not an easy situation.
(no subject)
Date: 14/10/11 19:20 (UTC)The problem is people tend to tar everyone with a "lazy" brush when they pull it out. To be blunt, the amount of shit people get for being overweight? wouldn't make it worth it to be a lazy arse unless they're otherwise healthy. The minute you're overweight, doctors blame all your problems on your weight even if the problem started when you were five stone nothing which is dangerously underweight.
(no subject)
Date: 14/10/11 20:02 (UTC)And then there are the ones who ARE lazy, who give everyone a bad reputation.
There's no easy answer, but if nothing else, we NEED to change the fitness and dietary culture in western society. That... is far easier said than done.
(no subject)
Date: 14/10/11 20:21 (UTC)Physician, heal thyself
Date: 15/10/11 01:09 (UTC)— Thomas Carlyle