Maybe the Kids are NOT Okay

[malasadas.livejournal.com]

There've been a lot of posts about the "Occupy Wall Street" protests and whether or not they are likely to accomplish anything. I am not really interested about that as a discussion topic because a) any "movement" that is only about a month old is unlikely to have its shit together and cannot even guarantee that it is going to last another week let alone influence elections that are more than a year off and b) the fact that people inside and outside of this community either agree with or disagree with the protests and their focus is indicative of nothing more than different conclusions based on the same set of facts. Honestly, if you look at the Wall Street protests and see people who are focussing on the "wrong problem" that should not confuse you -- some of us look at the current crisis and see the corrupting influence of corporate money on government while others look at the current crisis and see the distorting influence of government power over the marketplace (and even others see a combination of both). If we all concluded the same thing, there'd be no political parties.

I am interested in discussing what I have seen as indicative of some very dismissive, even outright condescendsion towards the protesters based on a combination of having no message, being young and being spoiled. "Having no message" seems like a silly critique of a set of protests only into their 4th week. Among the many narratives of the Tea Party's birth are origins going all the way back to the passage of TARP or Rick Santelli's rant on the trading floor during the stimulus debate -- but even then, months later, Tea Party rallies were held with so many participants holding signs that went far off the reservation of "cut spending" that it seems clear that messaging takes far more time than one month.

As far as the protesters' youth and status as spoiled is concerned, the following macro seems to sum up the attitude:





You know what, though? Young people SHOULD be pissed. Yes, they live in a country like America which is better off than most other places. Yes, many of them are college educated and therefore in possession of more opportunities than many others in their generation. But the facts are coming in on the generation growing up behind my own generation, and it isn't pretty from the standpoint of reaching the acheivements of their parents and grandparents.

My parents grew up immediately after WWII (my father was born in 1939). Many of their peers are afraid, but their generation has made it by and large. Not even the most drastic proposals out there for decreasing the debt touches their benefits. My generation (I was born in 1969) will have some troubles, but we will likely make it through. My very young children will likely make it through as things will probably settle into a new, plannable, direction by the time they grow up.

Today's college kids and recent college graduates? What are they entering in their early adulthood?

* Median household income has, adjusted for inflation, fallen all the way back to 1996 levels.

* The typical college graduate in 2009, left college with debt in excess of 23,000 dollars.

* The percentage of young adults aged 25-34 who are single and have never been married 12 percentage points from 2000 until 2009 meaning this generation is further delaying starting families and will have to work longer and harder if they want their children to have a college education.

Most trends for income and mobility are moving steadily DOWNWARD for this generation -- at the college educated level, which probably indicates a steeper decline among their non college educated peers. THEY SHOULD BE ANGRY.

I teach a class of college freshmen who want to be high school teachers. Today, we were discussing "school in the news" which always leads to discussion of policy. One student, somewhat randomly, jumped from that to ask me what I thought about "Occupy Wall Street." It is not my job to push a specific political agenda and OWS has an obviously left wing bent to it, so I told her I'd answer by not answering.

What I did tell them was this: My parents are in retirement...for the most part, they made it. My generation has some ways to go, but we will make it. Among my college classmates are a U.S. Senator, a major Washington correspondent for ABC news and a big time television drama producer -- whether i feel that way or not, I am old enough to be in the generation that is starting to run things. But THEIR generation? I told them the stats I cited above. And I told them that I do not care what solutions they endorse. I do not care what political tradition they endorse. But I told them to get involved. To find their voice. Because the truth is that left, right or center, their generation is in trouble, and the powers that be are not really listening to them yet.

I don't actually care if you agree or disagree with the young people who are gathering together at OWS for the past month, but not one person should denigrate their seeking a voice because the truth is that the kids are NOT okay, and more people with power, influence and resources need to listen to that.

Comments

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

Young people SHOULD be pissed.

That's inherent to young people. If they weren't pissed it would mean there's something very wrong going on with them. In fact, being in a relatively permanent state of being pissed is an indication that you're still young on the inside. So would you join me in one huge collective scream?

[ddstory.livejournal.com]

I hope not that kind of scream!

[malasadas.livejournal.com]

I'll do you one better and offer a 30 year old bottle of whiskey my dad just found in his closet and gave to me last week.

Dohhh!

[sophia-sadek.livejournal.com]

[airiefairie.livejournal.com]

Yes, thank you for this post. People have become too distracted by petty things like partisan bickering lately and they are missing the bigger picture. Ultimately, it boils down to this: this society is ill. It needs healing. The ways that should be done may vary, and that is where the differences occur. But at the end of the day, people realise that the situation should not be as it is now. And young people are most prone to expressing that. The urge for change is part of being young. Maybe they do not have a coherent position. Maybe they do not have viable ideas for solution. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't express their desire for healing their society... That same society that they have inherited and where they will have to live their lives. Those of the older who like to rant about the "lost generation", the "decadent youth" etc, should keep in mind that the fact the young are angry must tell us that we have failed them in a way. Actually in many ways.

[telemann.livejournal.com]

Great post, sir!

[nairiporter.livejournal.com]

What worries me is that too many people with power, influence and resources actually do realize that and they would try to "ride" the youth's anger for their unscrupulous purposes. They would take advantage of the vulnerability and naivety of the youth to exploit them for their ends.

[dreadfulpenny81.livejournal.com]

I don't actually care if you agree or disagree with the young people who are gathering together at OWS for the past month, but not one person should denigrate their seeking a voice because the truth is that the kids are NOT okay, and more people with power, influence and resources need to listen to that. -- That's all well and good, but they're proving their ignorance by taking their argument to the WRONG people. Corporations don't make all their decisions on their own. They have to follow government regulations. So where is the REAL problem coming from?

[ddstory.livejournal.com]

Corporations are only responsible to their shareholders. Who, in fact, are people, too.

Regulations are not the core and the roots of the problems, let's be honest. The problem starts way deeper than that.

[sealwhiskers.livejournal.com]

Corporations own politicians. This is in part what the protests are about.

[lafinjack.livejournal.com]

So if I leave my front door unlocked and I get robbed I can't charge the robber with anything?

[malasadas.livejournal.com]

Let me quote myself in response to your comment:

Honestly, if you look at the Wall Street protests and see people who are focussing on the "wrong problem" that should not confuse you -- some of us look at the current crisis and see the corrupting influence of corporate money on government while others look at the current crisis and see the distorting influence of government power over the marketplace (and even others see a combination of both). If we all concluded the same thing, there'd be no political parties.

[bikinisquad3000.livejournal.com]

Quick, provide a specific example of a government regulation that creates any of the problems anyone in OWS is complaining about.

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

You know, the young always want to believe they're part of something special, a unique revolution that happens once in a lifetime. (Technically, that last part is true actually - as far as *their* lifetime is concerned). Hell, even *I* like to think that I'm part of something bigger than me (http://talk-politics.livejournal.com/1171925.html). Everyone wants to be special.

But in fact, when you look back, you realize there's been almost permanent revolutions going on, and after all that, things don't seem to have changed much. At least not on a fundamental level.

If history doesn't go in circles, at least it's in spirals. Same patterns repeat over and over, only the new one being slightly modified according to the specifics of the time. the feeling of deja vu could be overwhelming at times. The only two constants that remain the same are:

- The young hate the status quo and want to change it, by force if necessary. they believe the old owe something to them.
- The old think the young are deluded and they don't know what they want. They're wary of the young coming to destroy their world.

Both of these represent two extremes. And no extreme is ever good. But on the upside, out of this clash beautiful things may emerge.

Just my 2 stotinki. A hugely thought-provoking post indeed.

[malasadas.livejournal.com]

I don't even disagree.

But I do think the demographic trends in play right now are ones that should seriously worry the current young. My generation's "coming of age" economic struggle in the early 90s recession looks like a walk through Disney World in comparison.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

I stand by my judgment of this movement *and* the Tea Party. Shouting really, really loudly in a semi-organized fashion is not a good sign for the United States' democratic institution. While the idea of perpetual anger and fear as stoked by both movements, the Tea Party for the old and these guys for the young really sounds less-USA and more the other Union. The United States does not need to bring back Wide-Awakes and the Know-Nothings.

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

That other Union would've squashed these guys like cockroaches the minute they opened their mouths, you know that. The one thing I respect in America (as an extended answer to the neighboring post) is that this Union actually does not do that.

[policraticus.livejournal.com]

* The typical college graduate in 2009, left college with debt in excess of 23,000 dollars.

Whose fault is that? If you have a 23K note on a finance or a engineering degree or if you managed to do pretty well in school and are a motivated person who is willing to work hard and save money, then chances are that was a good investment. If you have a $125K note on a anthropology degree or smoked enough dope to get your GPA all the way up to 2.25, then you are fucked in the ass by the system and have nobody to blame but yourself. My solution to this problem is to stop subsidizing loans to pay for college educations. Period. But then I am a heartless bastard who refuses to understand why every 18 year old is entitled to spend 4 years doing keg stands and sleeping around, nor do I think everyone is entitled to a job, a career or a bright, happy future.

You know who these OWS folks should be mad at? The entire education system and their parents who taught them that the world is supposed to be fair and that everyone deserves a gold star and a blue ribbon for just showing up.

[spaz-own-joo.livejournal.com]

It's interesting to me that you can attribute the plight of an entire demographic to their personal failings.

Usually the conservative approach is "individualism", meaning that personal failings are cited as the reason for how a certain individual's plight is worse than the rest of the demographic. "Things haven't gotten uniquely hard for you, it's just you're uniquely unprepared to deal with things."

But you've gone and done it to the entire aggregate, based on the average figure of their debt! If that doesn't serve as a bellwether for how shitty the conditions have gotten for them, then what could possibly convince you?

[devil-ad-vocate.livejournal.com]

I was a really gung-ho Army officer in 1968; I thought people protesting the war were a bunch of drugged out dirty hippies. By 1970 - still in the army - I had completely changed my mind. Protesting does make a difference - when the nutty elements drift away and a movement manages to organize a valid argument.

Eric Cantor is wrong if he thinks this is a mob. A mob has leaders; this is still a herd. When the leaders emerge, then he'll be correct... and start to really worry.

[sealwhiskers.livejournal.com]

I think the protests are a positive thing, not perfect, but positive. I truly find it rather unimportant what the opposition thinks, honing the movement and fighting the bought media's ways to silence it is way more important.

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

Isn't that what many Tea Party supporters have been trying to say too?

[soliloquy76.livejournal.com]

Someone just shared this article with me about OWS ands why they're angry. Lots of pretty pictures for those with short attention spans:

http://www.businessinsider.com/what-wall-street-protesters-are-so-angry-about-2011-10?op=1

[sealwhiskers.livejournal.com]

This is well worth reading.

An Opposing Point

[badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com]

* Median household income has, adjusted for inflation, fallen all the way back to 1996 levels.



Wages may be stagnating - prices, however, are not. People have more to spend. Quality of life for most is clearly, absolutely better - even with wages falling a bit during an economic downturn, we're seeing something else on a whole.

* The typical college graduate in 2009, left college with debt in excess of 23,000 dollars.

Which makes one wonder why the OWS people are marching on Wall Street as opposed to any number of the overpriced colleges out there.

* The percentage of young adults aged 25-34 who are single and have never been married 12 percentage points from 2000 until 2009 meaning this generation is further delaying starting families and will have to work longer and harder if they want their children to have a college education.

I wonder, and I don't know, how much of this has to do with the college gender gap closing/swapping (http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/assignment_7&id=4036900) as opposed to some economic reason. If more women are going to college, it means fewer women are marrying, which means families are starting later.

I don't actually care if you agree or disagree with the young people who are gathering together at OWS for the past month, but not one person should denigrate their seeking a voice because the truth is that the kids are NOT okay, and more people with power, influence and resources need to listen to that.

The problem is that I don't think these people are asking questions - they instead are sure they have the answers, and are looking to work off of that instead of working toward answers they may not like.

Re: An Opposing Point

[soliloquy76.livejournal.com]

The problem is that I don't think these people are asking questions - they instead are sure they have the answers, and are looking to work off of that instead of working toward answers they may not like.

You seem to have so many questions about this movement. Maybe you should go down to an OWS protest and ask them.

[notmrgarrison.livejournal.com]

The percentage of young adults aged 25-34 who are single and have never been married 12 percentage points from 2000 until 2009 meaning this generation is further delaying starting families and will have to work longer and harder if they want their children to have a college education.


This makes no sense. If they have families at an older age, they'll most likely be making more, not less, than they did when they were younger, so that they'll need to work less hard.

[malasadas.livejournal.com]

It makes perfect sense -- by the time their kids are independent, they'll have barely any time before retirement to make up the wealth they spent getting their kids to adulthood.

[eracerhead.livejournal.com]

It really doesn't help when CNN has a protester on who said she wanted to be a fashion designer, but had to go into nursing instead.

Occupy L.A. Speaker: Violence will be Necessary to Achieve Our Goals

[notmrgarrison.livejournal.com]

It wouldn't have helped if they had played this video either:

Crazy posts can have Fridays. Crazy comments would rather have Wednesday anyway.

[oportet.livejournal.com]

The race needs runners. That's us.
The race needs sponsors. That's Wall Street.
The race needs coordinators. That's the government.

There isn't a finish line - I guess you could say there is a starting line, but not everyone starts there - you've got to call it something though - you should call it the starting line, I know I am.

Some people get head starts, some people have sweet ass running shoes. Some people are limping barefoot. For lack of a worse word, this is unfair.

A normal race would have an entry fee, and a sponsorship fee. This isn't a normal race, you could say it has re-entry fees, re-sponsorship fees. They aren't the same for everyone. For us, it depends on how well we are doing, how well we make it appear we are doing, and 23 other variables. Or is it 24? Re-sponsorship fees - a little harder to figure out. How big of a banner do they put up? Do they want their logo on the t-shirt, or just their name?

Like I said earlier - there is no finish line. The race doesn't end. It can turn into a shitty race (shittier?), but you keep running - or walk -just stay on the road, or near it, or near something near it.

The problem is, the race started slowing down. Maybe we weren't running right, maybe the sponsors weren't sponsoring right - I'm sure most agree the coordinating was a little off. You could make a pie graph assigning the blame - or you could just make a pie - I think it's clear which one I think you should do.

Something had to be done, and done something was (that reads wrong, but sounds perfect if you use a firm voice). The coordinators lowered the re-sponsorship fees, and on top of that gave the sponsors a shit load of money.

The sponsors were expected, but not exactly required to help the runners out a little. Maybe make some directional signs pointing toward where a finish line would be if there was one. Maybe some sweat bands, because a few of us were sweating, and it burns after a while.

I guess since it happened twice, you could go back and read those last two paragraphs again. I could have copy and pasted but I still would have had to explain myself, unless you just get me - do you?

Now some runners are mad at the sponsors (and some runners think those mad runners are mad[as in craaaazy]). They could have made the race better, therefore making the runners better. They could have made the runners better, therefore making the race better. They did neither, at least not to a point of significance.

What did they do with the previously mentioned shit load of money, along with the money they saved? They kept some for themselves, because sponsorin' ain't easy. They spent a bit on things that could/possibly will help the runners and the race, but they put them in storage - they might bring them out when the race gets going again - but most likely right before we have to decide who we want coordinating or a short while after a new coordinator takes over - if you were looking for a conspiracy in this 7 page analogy, you just passed it.

It would be nice to stop now - to sling shit on the coordinators and the sponsors - and leave the group I belong to out of it - free from blame.
We may be the only constant of the race, but we haven't been running clean. Some of us ran sideways, or took a pace but miscalculated when that pace would get us to a certain point.

Back to the point that misses the point about who is missing the point.

The coordinators could have given us that money. We could have trickled it up to the sponsors instead of the other way around, which didn't happen - we wanted to get trickled on -I hope I can use the word trickled a few more times. Trickled.

Would we have done that though? You can say yes, you can't be proven wrong. I believe we would have trickled on them more than they trickled on us. I believe the race would be better now, but would it be a good race? I wouldn't go that far, but I did go this far. Have you?

Re: Crazy posts can have Fridays. Crazy comments would rather have Wednesday anyway.

[geezer-also.livejournal.com]

FWIW This gets my nomination for comment of the year in the over 10 lines category!!!!

[drblasphlemy.livejournal.com]

I would imagine that that many people are bound to become more and more dismissive each and every day as more and more information comes out about OWS. What exactly their message is and what exactly they are trying to accomplish. What exactly has been going on at the protests all around the country

I get being angry. I don't get the defecating on police cars, naked body painting, violence against the police or the host of other illegal activities going on. The not letting Congressman John Lewis speak at the Occupy Atlanta protest I think was a bad move as is the total lack of a message except: "Greed is bad...give us your money"

Do not think me heartless. I do despair about the future of my generation and that of the next. I worry about retirement, my mortgage and the sorry state of my bank account. I however do not blame others for my own actions. Nobody forced me to take out that mortgage or to get that student loan. If I am not happy about my bank I am with I am free to take my money out and get a different one.

Protesting Wall St. is not the answer. I'm not saying that it isn't part of the problem but it sure as Hell is not the whole of the problem.

Protesting how corporations have a hold of our elected officials I get. Protesting how you are angry because you are in debt and have no job because of a bad economy and have student loans I don't get. Stop protesting. Look for a job.

[bikinisquad3000.livejournal.com]

cough (http://blogs.ajc.com/the-buzz/2011/10/10/john-lewis-not-miffed-by-occupy-atlanta-dis/) cough (http://ireport.cnn.com/blogs/ireport-blog/2011/10/13/ireporters-define-occupy-wall-street-movement) ahem (http://www.economicpopulist.org/content/job-jolts-there-are-457-unemployed-job-opening-august-2011)

[kylinrouge.livejournal.com]

You're absolutely right. People see that all this country's wealth is being concentrated in the hands of the few, and literally people's futures (401ks) are being gambled by big investment firms because they know the government will bail them out if they lose the bet. The concept of safe investment is out the window when banks think their roulette wheels are FDIC insured.