[identity profile] tcpip.livejournal.com posting in [community profile] talkpolitics
In a recent article in talk_politics [livejournal.com profile] sophia_sadek presented an excellent article about the myth of natural property and in part the distinction between the "pursuit of happiness" as included in the Declaration of Independence contrasted with "property".

Now I'd like to start by mentioning that I do agree with the notion of a "natural right" to property (yes, an interesting thing from an anarcho-socialist to say, right?). I agree with not only the idea of natural, inalienable rights (even if they are socially mediated), but also with personal property. I certainly prefer mutual cooperatives rather than joint-stock as a model for capital ownership for example.

Even more so, I follow the classic liberals in their complete opposition in ownership of real estate without compensation to the public. For those numerous libertarians who think that is a socialist attack on sacred property rights, I can only urge you to read with a little care what your heroes, the enlightened dead white men, such as John Locke, Adam Smith, Thomas Paine, David Ricardo, John Stuart Mill et al., thought about landed property. Their answers may surprise you - and they were right.

But this isn't just to raise the debate over the moral legitimacy of political economy. What I want to raise is a return to the question of the pursuit of happiness, as [livejournal.com profile] sophia_sadek raised.. Which right do you think is more important, the right to property or the right to the pursuit of happiness?.



Now I presume that everyone here now those great lines from the American Declaration of Independence. Some consider them among the finest words in the English language; certainly that was the view of Ho Chi-Minh who repeated them as the opening words for the 1945 Proclamation of Independence of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam.

The notion of Happiness in this context is very much tied to the language of the period. Richard Cumberland (1672), who first used the phrase (that I know of) referred used the phrase meaning the promotion of well-being in others. In Hannah Arendt (On Revolution, 1962) the pursuit of happiness (a chapter is spent on this subject) refers to public freedom and the ability to engage in public participation and well as private welfare. Arendt argues against limiting happiness to the private sphrere and that the lack of public freedom is a key cause leads to totalitarianism (Arendt also wrote On Totalitarianism). As well as the usual varieties (Stalinism and Nazism) Arendt also locates the possibility of a 'totalitarian democracy' based on the instrumentalisation of mass society; she sees the only viable alternative to be the "revolutionary spirit" of public participation as found in federations of councils, similar to the polis of the ancient Hellenes (which interestingly, became a bit of an obsession for Thomas Jefferson as he aged).

In 1999 Frey and Stutzer, University of Zurich, Institute for Empirical Research in Economics, have empirically correlated social participation with happiness. This is in addition to work (such as the The Economost's Quality of Life Index, which showed a positive correlation between GDP per capita and quality of life, as expeted. However it also showed ignificant disparities between the two depending on how that wealth was used. The nations were the Quality of Life was significantly higher (10 ranks or more) than their GDP per capita in the larger economies included places like Sweden (+14), Italy (+15), Spain (+14) and New Zealand (+10). Places where the QoL index was significantly lower that their GDP per capita included the United States (-11), the United Kingdom (-16), Saudi Arabia (-23), and almost at the bottom of the list (despite being a mid-range economy according to GDP per capita), was Russia (-50). The best places to live, overall, were Ireland, Switzerland, Norway, Luxembourg, Sweden, Australia, Iceland, Italy, Denmark and Spain, Singapore and Finland.

Also worthy of reference is the excellent study by two British epidemiologists, Richard Wilkinson and Kate Pickett, "The Spirit Level: Why More Equal Societies Almost Always Do Betterl", 2010). There is a popular slideshow, which illustrates a key point of the book for each of eleven different health and social problems: physical health, mental health, drug abuse, education, imprisonment, obesity, social mobility, trust and community life, violence, teenage pregnancies, and child well-being, outcomes are significantly worse in more unequal rich countries.



The pursuit of happiness. It's about having public freedoms, it's about engaging in the public sphere, and it's about developing the economic capacity for others to engage in these activities as well as looking after our private well-being. Because that will make a more enlightened, free and democratic society. And that will make us happier.

(no subject)

Date: 11/10/11 05:40 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fizzyland.livejournal.com
I like your updated definition of the pursuit of happiness, it works for me.

(no subject)

Date: 11/10/11 07:13 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fizzyland.livejournal.com
I will certainly be interested in reading more in that case.

(no subject)

Date: 11/10/11 05:44 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mahnmut.livejournal.com
How do I hide part of my entry behind a link? What is an lj-cut? (http://www.livejournal.com/support/faqbrowse.bml?faqid=75)

(no subject)

Date: 11/10/11 06:07 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mahnmut.livejournal.com
I'm sorry if it sounded that way, my only intention is to suggest that yes, a cut would be useful.

(no subject)

Date: 11/10/11 06:30 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mahnmut.livejournal.com
Thumbs up!

(Smileys are useful) :-)

(no subject)

Date: 11/10/11 17:30 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] surferelf.livejournal.com
You're kidding, right? Coming from an anarcho-socialist, this is like a tweet!

(no subject)

Date: 11/10/11 22:04 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] surferelf.livejournal.com
Is that a koan? Like, "What is the sound of one hand clapping?"

(no subject)

Date: 11/10/11 13:28 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] terminator44.livejournal.com
I tend to identify with classical liberalism, but I admit I'm not too knowledgeable on its views on property you talk about. Where can I read about these views in more detail?

King Croesus comes to mind.

Date: 11/10/11 15:35 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sophia-sadek.livejournal.com
In the legend of King Croesus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croesus#Interview_with_Solon), he supposedly asked Solon if he did not consider him to be the happiest man he knew. Solon commented that he could not judge since Croesus was still alive. The people he considered happiest were already six feet under.

There are people today who consider Bill Gates to be as happy as Croesus, although they are unaware of the story. There is little understanding of how wealth does not automatically confer happiness.

(no subject)

Date: 11/10/11 15:38 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] 404.livejournal.com
The pursuit of happiness and the ability to have my own property are intertwined and can't be parsed out in some "either or" scenario.

(no subject)

Date: 11/10/11 19:12 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] spaz-own-joo.livejournal.com
Can you think of some sort of contrived scenario where your pursuit of happiness might come into conflict with someone else's right to property? How often do scenarios like this occur in real life, in your estimation?

(no subject)

Date: 11/10/11 20:52 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] 404.livejournal.com
My pursuit of happiness might involve smashing up the neighbor's house because he makes too much money in my head. Whenever a riot happens this is shown, though happily it does not happen too often.

A robber's pursuit to steal from his neighbor... a little more often.

(no subject)

Date: 11/10/11 17:27 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
The problem is that not all world cultures esteem happiness. So in the ones that don't this entire concept is nice, but irrelevant.

(no subject)

Date: 11/10/11 18:12 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jerseycajun.livejournal.com
From my own Christian perspective, I do certainly agree insofar that happiness in a metaphysical sense does have much to do with human interaction and community, I hesitate to even make the comparison with that and property rights as to which one is more important, as property rights play a rather significant practical role in allowing happiness to occur.

If I have any complaint to make it's with the following:

"In 1999 Frey and Stutzer, University of Zurich, Institute for Empirical Research in Economics, have empirically correlated social participation with happiness. This is in addition to work (such as the The Economost's Quality of Life Index, which showed a positive correlation between GDP per capita and quality of life, as expeted. However it also showed ignificant disparities between the two depending on how that wealth was used. The nations were the Quality of Life was significantly higher (10 ranks or more) than their GDP per capita in the larger economies included places like Sweden (+14), Italy (+15), Spain (+14) and New Zealand (+10). Places where the QoL index was significantly lower that their GDP per capita included the United States (-11), the United Kingdom (-16), Saudi Arabia (-23), and almost at the bottom of the list (despite being a mid-range economy according to GDP per capita), was Russia (-50). The best places to live, overall, were Ireland, Switzerland, Norway, Luxembourg, Sweden, Australia, Iceland, Italy, Denmark and Spain, Singapore and Finland.

Also worthy of reference is the excellent study by two British epidemiologists, Richard Wilkinson and Kate Pickett, "The Spirit Level: Why More Equal Societies Almost Always Do Betterl", 2010). There is a popular slideshow, which illustrates a key point of the book for each of eleven different health and social problems: physical health, mental health, drug abuse, education, imprisonment, obesity, social mobility, trust and community life, violence, teenage pregnancies, and child well-being, outcomes are significantly worse in more unequal rich countries.



The pursuit of happiness. It's about having public freedoms, it's about engaging in the public sphere, and it's about developing the economic capacity for others to engage in these activities as well as looking after our private well-being. Because that will make a more enlightened, free and democratic society. And that will make us happier."




5:10-8:12

I believe humanity has been trying to find the answer to the question of "what brings happiness?" since the dawn of time, and it's not something I believe has a reasonable chance of being found through an epidemiological study that results in definitive answers like the one in your final paragraph, even when I agree that those things can and do make people happy. It's a misapplied tool, inadequate for the demands of the question. In fact, it's hard to think of a tool that would be suited to that task.

(no subject)

Date: 11/10/11 18:20 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
Christianity brings happiness until some people start focusing on certain parts of the Gospels and then start engaging in pogroms as a testament of piety. Then Christianity starts meeting with "heathens" in supposed good faith and cutting off all their heads as a testament of piety. Then Christianity persecutes heresy and burns people alive in churches as a testament in piety. Finally Christians butcher each other in carload lots as a testament of piety, whereupon the impious infidels have had enough and defang L'Infame and there was much rejoicing.

(no subject)

Date: 11/10/11 18:30 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jerseycajun.livejournal.com
I read that comment and I see:

"I don't care about the substance of your comment, but on one of your self-described characteristics you mentioned in passing which I can now use as an excuse to vent."

I won't speak for others, but this is starting to get on my nerves, and I've let it pass for quite a while. From now on, out of courtesy, if you could avoid putting these in my inbox, I would be most appreciative.

(no subject)

Date: 11/10/11 19:13 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
My comment was that Christianity brings no happiness to anyone except those who benefit from it temporally. And that in any event one cannot be a good Christian and a good capitalist at the same time, one can be one or the other.

Too, the idea that we should entrust trial and error as our preferred method of solving social problems is another overly simplistic solution to complex issues. Trial and error is always fun until people starve to death to the tune of millions because of the "error" part.

(no subject)

Date: 11/10/11 19:27 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jerseycajun.livejournal.com
"My comment was that Christianity brings no happiness to anyone except those who benefit from it temporally."

Whether intentional or not you are claiming to know how my faith impacts my life from a position not justifiable to comment from.

"And that in any event one cannot be a good Christian and a good capitalist at the same time, one can be one or the other.

I believe you can be quite successful in an environment of economic freedom and quite Christian as well.

"Too, the idea that we should entrust trial and error as our preferred method of solving social problems is another overly simplistic solution to complex issues. Trial and error is always fun until people starve to death to the tune of millions because of the "error" part."

Trial and error doesn't have to be on a scale where failure is catastrophic. It has to be applied on smaller, survivable scale. It's odd that you should mention it though, because our current paradigm is still trial and error, but without acknowledging it for what it is (there's far too much pride in politics to possibly accept such a humble realization at this point and we prefer to think in terms of getting it 'right' the first time when it comes to which politicians we think will do a good job), and we are doing it on a scale where failure would be catastrophic, and the odds of success aren't any better for the increased risk.
Edited Date: 11/10/11 19:30 (UTC)

(no subject)

Date: 11/10/11 19:35 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
I said Christianity, that does not imply a comment on your faith.

I agree, one can be successful. One cannot be Christian without blatantly revising the entire Bible in the sense that say, Conservapedia wants to do so.

A smaller, survivable scale might be well and good but there are precious few people who would have the enthusiasm for it, and if there were, what works on the scale of a few hundreds or thousands will not and can not on the scale of modern states whose population numbers in the least populated states in the millions or tens of millions.

(no subject)

Date: 11/10/11 19:44 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jerseycajun.livejournal.com
"A smaller, survivable scale might be well and good but there are precious few people who would have the enthusiasm for it, and if there were, what works on the scale of a few hundreds or thousands will not and can not on the scale of modern states whose population numbers in the least populated states in the millions or tens of millions."

Perhaps then it should stay as a large number of small systems each allowed to experiment on their own solutions. Others can adopt methods that appear to work in different areas, or not as circumstance demands.

Again, you don't increase the odds of success by having one system make slow, inflexible adaptations one at a time.

"One cannot be Christian without blatantly revising the entire Bible in the sense that say, Conservapedia wants to do so."

Success is just having a little more at the end of each day than you spent so you can go on living. Everything else is just success to varying degrees. Since nothing in Christian philosophy requires that you starve or run at a loss, then your statement still belays a fundamental misunderstanding of the concepts.

And lacking enthusiasm is one of the symptoms of our misplaced priority of expecting our politicians and experts to have one plan that works, in defiance of reason, without having to experience failure.
Edited Date: 11/10/11 19:48 (UTC)

(no subject)

Date: 11/10/11 20:00 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
I prefer slow adaptations to trying to short-circuit processes that take centuries in a very short span of time.

(no subject)

Date: 11/10/11 20:11 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jerseycajun.livejournal.com
It's not a short-circuit of the process, it's adjusting the scale it operates on. You didn't like this idea because you perceived that if it failed it could devastate millions. When I pointed out that we pretty much do trial and error now on an less-than-survivable scale with our current format, that concern vanished, now replaced with much more vague concerns.

Political change and procedural change (as it pertains to dealing with complex systems) should not be conflated with one another. And not all experimentation should be considered limited to the public arena. The private arena has been dealing with complexities by focusing on what each individual institution knows and understands without trying to grapple with the whole enchilada for time out of mind. It's one of the advantages of a market that has yet to find a match in non-market institutions.
Edited Date: 11/10/11 20:14 (UTC)

(no subject)

Date: 11/10/11 20:15 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
They should not be in a theoretical sense but they will always be in a practical sense. The idea of a private sector/public sector differentiation is bullshit, to put it bluntly. The Free Market has what competition it does from government regulation, so the mere reality of there being a competitive private sector instead of an oligopoly is due to the public sector.

(no subject)

Date: 11/10/11 20:23 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jerseycajun.livejournal.com
Look, we're drifting here.

What happened to your concern over a system that fails on a devastating scale? Do you think that when we enact legislation that involves itself heavily into trying to manage a mathematically complex system for a more desirable outcome in its view, that it is not simultaneously risking the very thing you a moment ago told me you were not willing to risk?

(no subject)

Date: 13/10/11 15:27 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
I do, yes. That's one reason I don't like how long bills like the current healthcare reform act are, and why I also think that any shift to UHC must be a gradual and well-planned one that mitigates shock to the system.

(no subject)

Date: 13/10/11 16:43 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jerseycajun.livejournal.com
It's not avoiding 'shocking' the system in this case which can reduce the odds of simple human error when engaging in complex systems, nor the scope on which such an error would take effect. Complexity and its effects do not reduce by adjusting speed, it only does when reducing scale.

This is a different kind of risk than the risk of upheaval avoided by slow deliberate politics. How it is avoided or minimized is likewise different.

And to get back to the video, trial and error is the way that humanity has effectively dealt with systems which are beyond even an expert's grasp. The problem trying to be tackled are mathematical and numerical, but not in the sense of traditional algebraic equations that produce pristine, predictable graphs, but chaotic mathematics in which small, almost insignificant differences in starting conditions produce drastically and wildly unpredictable results.
Edited Date: 13/10/11 16:55 (UTC)

(no subject)

Date: 14/10/11 19:19 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
You're talking about gaps in scale that are quite big. A few tens of thousands or a few hundred people are not the same as the big states of the modern era which have populations in the tens or hundreds of millions. The trial and error on the one scale very much does not translate into the other scale.

(no subject)

Date: 14/10/11 19:30 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jerseycajun.livejournal.com
You're making me repeat myself. I've already said that in this case perhaps its best that the scale stays small, and let each locality adopt methods seen elsewhere or innovate new ones as they wish.

(no subject)

Date: 11/10/11 19:52 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jerseycajun.livejournal.com
"I said Christianity, that does not imply a comment on your faith."

It does when the person you're talking to counts themselves as a member of that faith.

(no subject)

Date: 13/10/11 15:26 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
As I do also count myself a member of that Faith I see nothing wrong with the statement as I made it.

Re: Mod Request?

Date: 12/10/11 15:19 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] abomvubuso.livejournal.com
Sure thing!

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