(no subject)

[mintogrubb.livejournal.com]

The minister of our Church got a new version of an old hymn off the internet for the Harvest Festival Service - this version has been widely used in the UK, was written by a Minister in Scotland who works in a farming community, apparently.

Reaction is varied. One reader of the Daily Telegraph was most perturbed to see the words on the hymn sheet at their Harvest Festival.but I have to say that I approve of the Church moving with the times. It also addresses a political issue I would like to discuss.

it goes -

Hymn
We plough the fields with tractors
With drills we sow the land.
But growth is still a wondrous gift
Of God’s almighty hand.
Organic fertilisers
help swell the growing grain.
But for its full fruition
It needs God’s sun and rain.

All good gifts around us
Are sent from heav’n above
Then thank the Lord, O thank the Lord
For all his love

To gather in the harvest
machines now lead the way,
We reap the fields with combines
We bale the new mown hay.
But it is God who gives us
incentives, skills and drives
Which lighten labour’s burden
And gives us fuller lives.

All good gifts around us….

We thank thee then, O Father
For life so rich and good.
For seed time and for harvest,
The wealth of daily food.
No gifts have we to offer.
For all thy love imparts
But what thou most desirest:
Our humble thankful hearts.

All good gifts around us….

Then why are people starving
When we have life so good?
And some in crowded cities
Search dustbins for their food;
And even some go hungry
Who farm in distant lands;
Lord, help us learn more swiftly
To share with open hands.



So why ~are people~ starving , in a world of plenty?
A recent news report said that the obese people around the world now outnumber the underfed. Ok, Technology and the Free Market have made this possible, but the I think answer is that we need to relearn the issues of Personal as well as Social Responsibility.

The UK Government has put out info on tobacco, but many people still smoke. Alcohol is also causing us many health problems in the UK, and people need to take more responsibility for their own nutrition when it comes to choosing what they eat.. Ok, that sounds very preachy and paternalistic, but the fact is that it's true that self indulgence is now possible, but not really desirable, - nor is it satisfying , long term.
A self focussed society is getting sick, physically as well as socially. At at Harvest time, I think we need to reflect on what the Bible says on Social Justice as well as personal responsibility.

Comments

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

Now if they could sing this hymn in death-metal version...

Biblical Justice

[russj.livejournal.com]

First let me say that this 'modern' hymn is pretty nice. Do you know what the hymn tune is, or do you have a link to the sheet music?

The next thing that I want to say is that the Bible says nothing about what modern society calls 'social justice'. There is only one kind of justice in the Bible, and 'social justice' as used in our society today is a code word for a special form of injustice.

Here are some Bible quotes on justice:

GIVE ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.
My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:
Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
(Old Testament | Deuteronomy 32:1 - 4)

How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
(Old Testament | Psalms 82:2 - 4)

To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.
(Old Testament | Proverbs 21:3)

Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!
Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:
Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!
Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.
(Old Testament | Isaiah 5:20 - 24)

Thus saith the Lord GOD; Let it suffice you, O princes of Israel: remove violence and spoil, and execute judgment and justice, take away your exactions from my people, saith the Lord GOD.
Ye shall have just balances, and a just ephah, and a just bath.
(Old Testament | Ezekiel 45:9 - 10)

He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?
(Old Testament | Micah 6:8)

Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
(New Testament | Philippians 4:8)

so-called 'social justice'

[russj.livejournal.com]

Using unjust means [power/force] to take property from one person and give it to another person in order to achieve a questionable goal such as 'income equality'.

Re: so-called 'social justice'

[russj.livejournal.com]

The original post referred to Biblical teaching about 'Social Justice'.
The Bible has a lot to say about real justice.
I say that what is commonly called 'social justice' today is nothing but a code name for plain old in-justice.

Re: so-called 'social justice'

[mintogrubb.livejournal.com]

This 'social justice ' that you deride is simply
"taxing rich people to give handouts to the poor" - and no, that is not what I , or the Bible advocate.

Social Justice is about seeing to it that the workers gets a fair price for their goods and labour and not get beaten down to a mere pittance by the 'buyers market' that the rich people try to rig in world trading .

It is about giving every child an education, giving girls a future that goes beyond cooking for a man and bearing his kids as a source of income.

Ok - amybe the Bible is not so hot on that , but I am , see.

THAT is 'Social Justice' in my book - the effort to make all equally prosperous, not the attempt to make all equally poor.

Re: so-called 'social justice'

[mintogrubb.livejournal.com]

Let me put this to you -
In England , there is a law that says that you cannot pay a woman less, just because she is a woman .

And another that says a child belongs in a school, learning things that will enable said child to have a better life than just working for a pittance in a coal mine.

Is this ' use of force' on the part of the State Just , or unjust, in your opinion ?

My two cents

[harry-beast.livejournal.com]

you cannot pay a woman less, just because she is a woman
Just: same job + same performance = same pay
Unjust: different job + different performance = same pay, as long as it's higher

child belongs in a school, learning things
Just: useful learning opportunities in a tolerable environment
Unjust: useless, mind-numbing, dehumanizing lessons while getting bullied and abused daily

Re: Biblical Justice

[sophia-sadek.livejournal.com]

I am interested in the use of capital letters for words such as lord and god. It shows a fascinating level of idolatry.

Re: Biblical Justice

[russj.livejournal.com]

It's direct copy/paste from the King James Version of the Bible.

English rules say that reference to diety should be capitalized.

As for the LORD being all capitals, the KJV translators usually use that form to indicate when the Hebrew text contained the 'tetragrammaton' which can also be rendered 'Jehovah', as opposed to the Hebrew 'Adonai', which is translated as 'Lord' (only first letter capitalized).

See "King James Version." in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetragrammaton

And don't get me started on the KJV use of italics (which probably don't show up in the cut & paste anyway)...

Re: Biblical Justice

[meus-ovatio.livejournal.com]

The Bible has nothing to say of any kind of modern justice.

Re: Biblical Justice

[mintogrubb.livejournal.com]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBIazkBB9K4

here is the hymn tune itself, with trad words.

But...
and 'social justice' as used in our society today is a code word for a special form of injustice.
meh ! Only by Americans.

Social Justice , in England = Traid Craft, Zeer pots, Drop the Debt, Amnesty International, and many more.

For why should men like Murdoch be able to have more say in the choosing of a government than his workers? Why should he be above the law?

Obesity from malnutrition.

[sophia-sadek.livejournal.com]

I attended a forum with a doctor who specialized in treating the obese. One of the most common complaint he heard from poor obese people when prescribing water instead of corn sugar drinks is that, "Water doesn't taste good." The problem demonstrates how important education is for maintaining a healthy populace. Obesity results from malnourishment and is just as bad as undernourishment.

[meus-ovatio.livejournal.com]

Come now, you rich, weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted and your garments are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver have corroded, and their corrosion will be evidence against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up treasure in the last days. Behold, the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, are crying out against you, and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts. You have lived on the earth in luxury and in self-indulgence. You have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter.

You gotta love that James fellow.

[meus-ovatio.livejournal.com]

Whoever oppresses the poor to increase his own wealth, or gives to the rich, will only come to poverty.

See, right in the Bible, don't give to rich people. Meaning? Well, pretty much the entire tax code is unBiblical. But then of course, this is a foregone conclusion, since modern society really has very little to do with anything in the Bible. It's like commenting upon the fact a rhino doesn't have a flipper. And political donations? The Bible really only recognizes bribery, so the question is whether or not political donations count as bribery. The problem of course, being that the Bible is a two-edged sword, and the Bible, is used, condemns everyone equally regardless of political affiliations... so let's leave the Bible out of this, because it only makes sense in a monarchy anyways.

“You shall do no injustice in court. You shall not be partial to the poor or defer to the great, but in righteousness shall you judge your neighbor."

Of course, this pretty much mocks the entirety of our justice system. But this is not a partisan thing either.

"And you shall not strip your vineyard bare, neither shall you gather the fallen grapes of your vineyard. You shall leave them for the poor and for the sojourner: I am the Lord your God. "
Of course, it had long been considered theft from God to account too zealously for one's own product. This "surplus", if you will, was considered the rightful property of the needy. Being that we have specific laws against even allowing this notion, the Bible once again simply mocks from a very long distance at all of us.

"You shall not wrong a sojourner or oppress him, for you were sojourners in the land of Egypt. "
And of course, these people had no real sense of "immigration" like we have it today, and they also simply lacked the technological and political development to enforce "borders", which were not seen as fences or barriers, but measures of power and sovereignty, such that people roamed to and fro and found themselves under the sovereignty of a given monarch; and in all this is was still considered highly unjust to start throwing people off your lands because of "citizenship" issues... they didn't even have a concept of "citizenship" outside ethnic identity and the simple fact that you happened to live in a place where some asshole ruled.

[meus-ovatio.livejournal.com]

Of course, the point of the Bible is not given over to any man or place, and that we are all fuckers, and all us fuckers are gonna get fucked, because we're too worried about our own fuckhead politics and sense of ideological consistency to, you know, look at life and at situations and well, you know, think about what the best thing to do would be. We are all of us fuckers, in our own ways, babbling within our abstract worlds of policy and ideology, horrified that from without our systems of thought are entirely irrelevant. Woe, woe is man, the fucker, the fuckhead who fucks, and writes books about fuck-all, and explains to his own heart vain postulations while the fucked remain fucked, and all to no avail, for the World has but little reverence for the fevered ramblings of fuckheads writing books and thinking up things and systems, all of which are fucking fuck.

[meus-ovatio.livejournal.com]

And so it was, that Wise Fucker Solomon, perceiving the situation, ordered an infant to be separated from itself by the interpolation of a blade betwixt its plexus, a horrifying thought indeed, for perhaps we were expecting a treatise and essay explaining to all the fucks the Truth of the matter, in neatly annotated form and set forth in a book, by which precedents could be established. But this is all folly, for there are no precedents for Wisdom, since such would imply that Wisdom is a backward-looking thing, stuck in books and fuck-all about nothing, but no, that is not what it is, for Wisdom knows only exactly what must be done, regardless of books, since books are simply the vain flailing of fuckheads with no idea what to do.

[luzribeiro.livejournal.com]

You're a great fan of this topic, aren't you?

[mintogrubb.livejournal.com]

You are getting pretty close to Ecclesiastes, here, in insisting that that which is crooked cannot be straightened.

Sure, it is the greatest book in the OT, notwithstanding the Psalm of Asaph, who kinda knocks the sugar coating that Proverbs tries to put on things.

however, i still maintain that , although we cannot straighten everything out and make it all OK, I still feel that we gotta try.

[mintogrubb.livejournal.com]

You gotta love that James fellow.
Oh , I do! Best book in the NT, as far as I'm concerned.

[lilenth.livejournal.com]

When it comes to food, the problem is not that people are irresponsible, it's that a pack of chicken breasts coated in processed stuff and full of more fat than a plain breast is a quarter of the price of an unprocessed breast. I can get four processed chicken breasts for £1, the plain ones set me back £4 a pack for about five of them.

An ordinary loaf of bread packed with sugar, salt and still more additives? Costs 60p to £2 at the most. The only bread on the shelves without all of those additives is a specialist type for certain diets, that bread costs nearly £4. Why does taking out the extra sugar, salt and a lot of other things not needed in food more than double the price? The only other difference is the bread is gluten free and requires different flour which while they are more expensive than wheatflour? Are not so expensive as to justify the enormous price hike between the two types.

A pack of 6-8 rice cakes? £1 - £1.40 depending on the type. A multipack of crisps with several times the amount, and several times the amount of sugar, salt and other things? is £1. Rice costs less than pennies to the companies that make rice cakes yet it's more expensive per gram than crisps are.

Pomegranate and cranberry juice drink with nearly half the adult GDA of sugar per cup? 79p Pomegranate and cranberry juice with no added sugar? In the region of about £2 a carton. The companies pay no more for extra fruit to juice than they do for the refined sugar that goes into the juice drink.

Not everyone can afford to select the healthy option and much of this price inflation is profit not cost. I used to work in food production, I know how cheaply the companies produce some of these things, one company I worked for still made a profit selling excess sandwiches from overrun to it's workers at 20p a sandwich. The same sandwiches hit the shops priced at anywhere between £1.50 and £3+ depending on the packaging (a few of the more expensive ones had some minor tweaks but other than that they were often identical except for packaging). That's a lot of profit.

Healthy options start at double the price of non-healthy options and can be anything up to eight times the cost, most of which is profit. Incomes have been squeezed and money buys less now, so many people are forced to choose cheaper options and ingest more sugar, salt and many other things that are strictly good for them.

I do not smoke or drink and I still have to make compromises when it comes to food. In short, you can starve even in the midst of plenty simply because plenty is priced out of your reach.