The Myth of Natural Property

[sophia-sadek.livejournal.com]

In our discussion of libertarian heroism, an interesting misconception came to light. There is a belief that private property is an aspect of human nature. The people who espouse this notion are not experts on what does and does not constitute human nature, nor are they experts on what constitutes privacy or property. The science on human nature is problematic because scientists are themselves sheltered from nature. The scientific discipline is an elevation above the level of the natural homo sapiens to a highly disciplined degree.

Are human beings selfish, greedy, lacking in compassion by nature, or is it a conditioned state of being demanded by the economic system into which homo sapiens is indoctrinated? Does the rat race program human beings to behave like rats, or is homo sapiens naturally rodent-like? Sometimes we can hear the soft patter of rodent feet scampering across the drop ceiling of Internet punditry.

Before Roman enslavement, educators did not own property. Property management was a mundane responsibility that prevented people from experiencing a full life. It was not a highly valued occupation although it was important for the sustenance of the general population. Education was a more rigorous discipline and its practitioners were better respected than they are today.

Whenever I hear people speak of property rights, I am reminded of an organization I encountered on the streets of New York back in the eighties. It is a retrograde Catholic group whose politics seem to resemble those of Opus Dei called the Society for the Defense of Tradition, Family, and Property (aka TFP). My partner was on their mailing list and regularly received their high production value newsletter. It was filled with quasi-fascist propaganda.

I am also reminded of Jeremy Bentham's arguments against the idea of equal property rights. It can be summed up by the argument that if your neighbor had property rights equal to yours, she has just as much a right to sleep in your bed as you do. (I know that a number of the guys in this community would probably welcome that.)

The traditional Tory slogan for rights runs along the line of the right to "life, liberty, and property." In America, broader minded people reconsidered this slogan and came up with "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."

Which right do you think is more important, the right to property or the right to the pursuit of happiness?

Comments

[fizzyland.livejournal.com]

Real estate - it's the only thing they're not making more of.

Not so!

[sophia-sadek.livejournal.com]

Consider the condominium:



Each apartment sells for $1M plus.

[badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com]

Which right do you think is more important, the right to property or the right to the pursuit of happiness?

Those two cannot be separated.

Not for you.

[sophia-sadek.livejournal.com]

Why do you suppose they are so intertwined for you?

[the-rukh.livejournal.com]

The fact that there have been many cultures in the world that did not have property rights and yet somehow people still managed happiness obliterates your assertion.

[prog-expat.livejournal.com]

So, in 2.5 million years of propertyless hunter-gatherer and horticultural societies, none pursued happiness? It took the invention of — depending on the local conditions — pastoralism (with herds, typically the property of the tribe's chief) or agriculture (intensive exploitation of domesticated plants, typically with the fields — and the workers — as the property of the tribe's chief) to enable the pursuit of happiness?

[3fgburner.livejournal.com]

They're equally important.

How so?

[sophia-sadek.livejournal.com]

Do view that equality of importance to be for you personally, or do you extend it to humanity in general? Also, is your perception of such equality similar to the attitude that others have that one in contingent on the other?

[jerseycajun.livejournal.com]

It's hard to be secure in your person if the place you sleep, eat and live can be 're-imagined' on a whim as someone else's place to eat, sleep and live.

In this way you and property are connected intimately. In fact I would go so far as to say that because being secure in your person and happiness are also linked, that it is no exaggeration to say that the question of whether happiness or property are more important becomes, as noted by others, a ridiculous question. They are related.

Private property...

[sophia-sadek.livejournal.com]

... does not guarantee that the property is secure. As for finding difficulty in security outside of ownership, that is something that many people have accomplished. It is not impossible.

[policraticus.livejournal.com]

Which right do you think is more important, the right to property or the right to the pursuit of happiness?

How can I pursue happiness if I don't have a right to the fruits of my labor?

What good are the fruits of my labor if I can't use them to pursue happiness?

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

I was trying to think of a concise way to put it, and you did it for me. Thanks.

[vnsplshr.livejournal.com]

"Property management was a mundane responsibility that prevented people from experiencing a full life."

Sour grapes?

How?

[sophia-sadek.livejournal.com]

In order for something to be sour grapes it must be desired.

[dukexmachismo.livejournal.com]

In capitalist America, happiness pursues YOU!

With...

[sophia-sadek.livejournal.com]

... a vengeance. Your icon reminds me of the line, "They all float down here."

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

The people who espouse this notion are not experts on what does and does not constitute human nature, nor are they experts on what constitutes privacy or property.

And who do you think is? You? And are you sure you know who is espousing this viewpoint and that they aren't experts? Since it's all philosophy anyways, what's your metric?

I am also reminded of Jeremy Bentham's arguments against the idea of equal property rights. It can be summed up by the argument that if your neighbor had property rights equal to yours, she has just as much a right to sleep in your bed as you do.

Wow, I thought Bentham was smarter than that (unless you're mischaracterizing it.). That's a patently absurd argument.

http://www.iep.utm.edu/property/
I have not read this completely, so there may be some disagreement later, but it appears to be a reasonable philosophical argument for private property rights. Is this something you would dismiss because they "aren't an expert"?

How is Bentham wrong?

[sophia-sadek.livejournal.com]

Bentham viewed property rights as specific rights to specific pieces of property. From that perspective, equal rights mean an equal right to use the same specific piece of property. He did not consider the fact that women were denied the right to own any property.

[notmrgarrison.livejournal.com]

"There is a belief that private property is an aspect of human nature. "

It predates humans.

A lot of animals will claim and defend their territory. They just as well will defend their food kills/finds (assuming the thief isn't too big). Birds don't make nests only to let other birds take them.

[peristaltor.livejournal.com]

Yup. Many animals will invest twice the energy to defend "property" (as they perceive it) as they will to acquire new.

We are animals. It's that simple.

what is private property

[russj.livejournal.com]

I agree with many of the above comments.
What is more fundamental then the right to life?

The most basic property is one's own life, and the most basic liberty is the right to direct that life, which is also called the pursuit of happiness.

After that, the second most fundamental property is the product of one's own labor. Merely because that product may be bought and sold doesn't negate the fact of its existence.

Locke says that we obtain property rights by mixing our labor with it. In the wintertime, people in Chicago put old chairs in the street to assert their claim to on-street parking spaces which they have cleared by their labor. This common practice illustrates his assertion.

Re: what is private property

[fizzyland.livejournal.com]

When I lived in the midwest, I had a nice collection of traffic cones in my trunk from attempts to claim parking spots on public roads.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

To be sure, property is an artificial construct of civilization. So also is every other construct of the human mind artificial. If declaring property artificial means it does not exist, neither does any other artificial cultural construct. Saying it is so will not revert us all to the state of nature and the Palaeolithic.

[fizzyland.livejournal.com]

*sadly puts down stone club and shuffles home*

[kardashev.livejournal.com]

Well tbh, I don't believe we truly have any rights. What we actually have are privileges granted by the guy with the biggest stick.

Until he decides to take them away, of course.

You have...

[sophia-sadek.livejournal.com]

... the right to be arrested. All other rights are mere illusions.

[harry-beast.livejournal.com]

Property rights are more important than happiness rights. Happiness is too subjective to be guaranteed by law, except maybe in a Brave New World way.

There is a difference...

[sophia-sadek.livejournal.com]

... between happiness and the pursuit thereof. In order to pursue happiness, the individual needs basics that are more important than property.

[mrbogey.livejournal.com]

'It can be summed up by the argument that if your neighbor had property rights equal to yours, she has just as much a right to sleep in your bed as you do.'

That is nonsensical. How does he arrive at that?

If property rights do not exist, why not have slavery?

If you've no right to property then why have a right to your labor since labor is a form of property. It's something you possess and you trade to others in exchange for their property. So if you've no right to labor then why not slavery?

[sophia-sadek.livejournal.com]

I never said that property rights do not exist. I merely contend that they are not natural, as is assumed by some authors.

As for the right to labor, the right to not labor is of greater value.

[raichu100.livejournal.com]

I don't have a really solid answer to thd question you posed, but the first thing that comes to mind is that the right to property is far easier to define than the "right to the pursuit of happiness".

I do think property rights are very important, though. We live in a society far too large and complex to simply live the "everything belongs to the earth and we all hold hands and live in harmony" life even if that does seem appealing at times.

Still...

[sophia-sadek.livejournal.com]

... it is good to realize that you cannot take it with you.

[foolsguinea.livejournal.com]

Property is nothing but territoriality writ large, and filtered through assumptions of law and tradition. Better to be like the songbirds, perhaps, and have a man's territory be only that he can defend himself, rather than to have law secure his grandfather's grandfather's grandfather's claim for him.

I agree.

[sophia-sadek.livejournal.com]

The songbird life is full of experience and joy.

[tcpip.livejournal.com]

I'll be impressed if there is a single person (apart from myself) here who knows what the phrase "the pursuit of happiness" actually means.

Like any other phrase...

[sophia-sadek.livejournal.com]

... it means different things to different people. Some here see the pursuit of happiness in nest feathering, others see it in delving into pile of books, others see it in being outdoors. See this posting (http://talk-politics.livejournal.com/1151312.html) for ideas.

[kylinrouge.livejournal.com]

Property rights may certainly make it much easier to achieve happiness, but they're not a prerequisite. The negative externalities of not owning property probably outweigh any possible positive ones.

Not...

[sophia-sadek.livejournal.com]

... in my experience.

[404.livejournal.com]

You have the right to remain silent, too bad many of our more colorful friends here refuse to use that right.