[identity profile] sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com posting in [community profile] talkpolitics
This post started as a response to Jeff's but started to get overly heavy and in keeping with the monthly topic so here it is in it's own thread:

I will open with an assertation; specifically that "conventional wisdom" is bullshit.

Now I have been charitibly called cynical, skeptical, and paranoid by the people who know me and frankly I consider such words to be compliments. It is my belief that many of the things that we consider to be "facts" are actually assertations that we have simply decided to believe because it is convient to do so or because they have been presented to us as true.

Hitler famously opined that "people will believe a big lie sooner than a little one; and if you repeat it frequently enough people will sooner or later believe it." (OSS profile of Hitler), p.51

Why why is this? The answer is really quite simple. People lie. Usually the lies are small, we may lie for personal convenience (to receive a reward or to avoid punishment) or to spare the feelings of someone we care about when the truth could be hurtful ("Does this dress make my ass look fat?”) we Lie all the time and yet we will hesitate at a real whopper either because A: we’re basically honest and couldn’t bring themselves to tell one, or B: we’re wary of the consequences. Much of Conventional Wisdom is often not supported by logic or evidence it has simply been repeated often enough that people take it to be true.

The remainder of the post has been retracted, please go <ahref="http://talk-politics.livejournal.com/1034927.html">here for further information.

Rolling Stone Magazine recently published a critique of Fox News and it's Chairman Roger Ailes. On the surface this may seem like saying "the pope is catholic" but on page 12 is the following interesting quote.

The result of this concerted campaign of disinformation is a viewership that knows almost nothing about what’s going on in the world. According to recent polls, Fox News viewers are the most misinformed of all news consumers. They are 12 percentage points more likely to believe the stimulus package caused job losses, 17 points more likely to believe Muslims want to establish Shariah law in America, 30 points more likely to say that scientists dispute global warming, and 31 points more likely to doubt President Obama’s citizenship. In fact, a study by the University of Maryland reveals, ignorance of Fox viewers actually increases the longer they watch the network.

Clearly the author considers the above assertations (the failure of the stimulus package, muslim asperations, dissent over global warming, and claims of Obama's non-citizenship) to be false. Otherwise he would not have used the word "misinformed". What I find interesting is that the conventional wisdom would agree with him despite the fact that an objective case can be made to the contrary.

There IS debate over whether Global Warming is anthropological, and there ARE muslims who would like to see Shariah supplant western law. The jury's still out on the stimulus package and the birthers ARE full of shit but what's 2 (maybe 3) out of 4 between friends? This raises the obvious question of who is more misinformed, your average FOX News viewer or your average Rolling Stone journalist?

You see we all know that Bush lied about Iraq's WMDs (ignore the uranium and the history) just as we Know that Sarah Palin is unfit to be president and Obama is.

The point I suppose is to question what you are told, and distrust anyone who would ridicule you for doing so.

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Date: 6/6/11 02:19 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] anfalicious.livejournal.com
I think the issue comes where Fox viewers believe the evidence against AGW is more credible than it is (I'm not going to say it shouldn't be analysed, it should, that's part of the scientific method, but it seems fairly well dealt with to me) and that they think there is any possibility of Sharia law. There's people out there who want to be Emperor of the world, it doesn't mean we should be worried about that as a possibility.

This is what Fox does so well, it dogwhistles and massages and manipulates until they have people believing things that just are not true.

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Date: 6/6/11 07:22 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gunslnger.livejournal.com
As do CNN and MSNBC. Unless you're just saying that they aren't as good at it.

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Date: 6/6/11 02:43 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] meus-ovatio.livejournal.com
Except for you, right? I'm all about being cynical and all, but what I find most professed and wanna-be cynics to espouse is a reverse-naivete... don't trust them, but listen to me.

Politically speaking, we see it with Israel and Palestine. Don't listen to them, but take everything we say wholly and completely otherwise you are dumb.

I am the only true cynic. I don't trust anyone or anything. I don't even trust myself! I'm a lying sonofabitch, biased, faulty, stupid and wrong. God I'm an asshole.

Most "skepticism" is just sophistry. All it really is, is "believe me, but not them".

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Date: 6/6/11 03:56 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mrbogey.livejournal.com
'I am the only true cynic... I'm a lying sonofabitch, biased, faulty, stupid and wrong. God I'm an asshole."

Well... I... concur, I guess.

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Using absolutely no wisdom here.

Date: 6/6/11 02:43 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] stewstewstewdio.livejournal.com
I will open with an assertation; specifically that "conventional wisdom" is bullshit.

This isn't a critique, but just a gut feeling here. It seems like you are trying to convince yourself of your assertion in the post more than convince anyone else.

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Date: 6/6/11 02:45 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] meus-ovatio.livejournal.com
You see we all know that Bush lied about Iraq's WMDs (ignore the uranium and the history) just as we Know that Sarah Palin is unfit to be president and Obama is.
Sure, uh-huh, because Iraq really had mobile weapons laboratories on rails that we had to make up fake pictures of in Photoshop, and we really knew where the WMD factories were, (Just ask Rummy: they were north, south, east, and west of Baghdad.)

You know, finding some true things doesn't mean people didn't lie. It means you missed the boat about what we're talking about.

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Date: 6/6/11 21:20 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] xforge.livejournal.com
north, south, east, and west of Baghdad

How To Tell Someone Is Blowing Smoke Up Your Ass, Lesson 1.

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Date: 6/6/11 02:52 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] the-rukh.livejournal.com
So what you think is we should go against all evidence and go with what FOX says? Because why? They agree with you more? No thanks.

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Date: 6/6/11 04:26 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] telemann.livejournal.com
There's a chart of the Roger Ailes's talking points in action at Fox News. (http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/distort-attack-repeat-20110524?page=2) The larger article about Ailes is fascinating, and shows his background and connections with Lee Atwater.

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Date: 6/6/11 09:33 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] deborahkla.livejournal.com
I was wondering the same--especially since most reputable scientists agree that global warming is real. In fact, when the GOP brought in an anti-global warming scientist to study the evidence, he ended up changing his mind and agreeing with the consensus.

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Date: 6/6/11 04:06 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kylinrouge.livejournal.com
I think you're confusing conventional wisdom with, oh, say, facts.

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Date: 6/6/11 04:50 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] telemann.livejournal.com
When you think about it, most scientific ideas were very much against conventional wisdom.

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Date: 6/6/11 04:15 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] telemann.livejournal.com
There IS debate over whether Global Warming is anthropological,

Like there is debate we landed on the Moon, or the Earth is flat, or George W. Bush was responsible for the attacks on the WTC. There isn't a single scientific body that disagrees with the theory in large. Naomi Oreskes seminal study of 928 scientific research and papers found there was no disagreement within the scientific community on the root cause of climate change (http://www.sciencemag.org/content/306/5702/1686.full), but traditional media coverage would suggest otherwise. You then link to a Youtube video about Climategate, oh the lolz. Four independent studies of the controversy found nothing: e.g. a British investigation commissioned by the UEA and chaired by Sir Muir Russell, published its final report in July 2010. The commission cleared the scientists and dismissed allegations that they manipulated their data. And I suppose you don't know about Mueller's recent work confirms AGW: (http://articles.latimes.com/2011/apr/04/local/la-me-climate-berkeley-20110404) "A team of UC Berkeley physicists and statisticians that set out to challenge the scientific consensus on global warming is finding that its data-crunching effort is producing results nearly identical to those underlying the prevailing view. The Berkeley Earth Surface Temperature project was launched by physics professor Richard Muller, a longtime critic of government-led climate studies, to address what he called "the legitimate concerns" of skeptics who believe that global warming is exaggerated."
Edited Date: 6/6/11 04:17 (UTC)

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Date: 6/6/11 04:33 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] a-new-machine.livejournal.com
We ought to teach the controversy though. I mean, I for one believe that diseases are caused by invisible spirits and witches. ZOMG there is debate over the germ theory of disease! Common knowledge is wrong, and all the germophobes can stop washing their hands obsessively, and start washing their hands obsessively in holy water!

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Date: 6/6/11 05:32 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mrsilence.livejournal.com
That Yellowcake that was removed to Canada had all been there since before 1991. No-one claimed that wasn't there or that Bush ever lied about that. The U.N. inspectors had documented it because they had been the ones who put it into storage for the Iraqis after taking it from the reactor the Israelis destroyed.

That's actually IN the article you linked to. Jeezuz.

The lies that Bush told were about Iraqi attempts to source Yellowcake from Niger later on.

Prior to quoting that lone British intelligence report in his State of the Union speech that suggested that might be the case, the U.S. Ambassador to Niger, the CIA, the State Department, French Intelligence and British Intelligence all told him that the documents he was was basing that claim on were "highly dubious" "forgeries" "not to be trusted" etc.

He must have known it was almost certainly not true when he said it.

All of that information is also on Wikipedia, linked to under "Yellowcake_Forgeries".

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Date: 6/6/11 07:13 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mrsilence.livejournal.com
The other ones the disagreement is a matter of degrees.

1. Climate Change/AGW: You're right, there is still debate. But not very much. If you want major scientific organisations, there is almost none about the basic fact of Climate Change/AGW

For instance, No scientific body of national or international standing has maintained a dissenting opinion since 2007. Not even the American Association of Petroleum Geologists, who obviously have a vested interest.

Various numbers between about 95-98% of Climatologists surveyed agree with the basic fact of Climate Change/AGW.

Do we actually absolutely no-one with a science degree to disagree with it, before we can say there's no debate over the fact of Climate Change/AGW? Or are you really saying that until we have 100.00% agreement, we can't accept that it's a fact?

2. How many Muslims want Sharia law in the United States? A majority? Less than half? Which Muslims living where are you counting? What do they mean by "want"? Do you mean, are actively seeking to create Sharia, or just like the idea?

If we polled Christians in the United States, how many of them would "want" Christian laws to rule in Iraq? 80%? 90? 99.99%? (Remembering that number would mean there is still a "debate" going over whether Christian's really want Christian law to rule in Iraq)

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Date: 6/6/11 11:29 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mrbogey.livejournal.com
There's a great confusion in the discussion about Sharia law in the US. Sharia means laws that are in compliance with the religious teachings of Islam. All Muslims should to a degree want Sharia law as it's what Islam teaches.

The thing with the US is ultimately Sharia hits a point where it's blatantly unconstitutional. And though minor, there have been US cases where sharia came up. Generally custody cases involving foreign courts where we gave sharia based laws weight in the decision.

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Date: 6/6/11 10:11 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] deborahkla.livejournal.com
Clearly the author considers the above assertations NOTE: the correct word is assertions, not assertations (the failure of the stimulus package, muslim asperations, dissent over global warming, and claims of Obama's non-citizenship) to be false. Otherwise he would not have used the word "misinformed". What I find interesting is that the conventional wisdom would agree with him despite the fact that an objective case can be made to the contrary.

Interesting how you've twisted these conclusions to suit your opinions. Example: You've turned 30 points more likely to say that scientists dispute global warming to Clearly the author considers the above assertations (....dissent over global warming...) to be false.
That's not the conclusion. The conclusion is that 30% are more likely to say that scientists dispute global warming, as opposed to NOT disputing global warming. Now if you can provide evidence that the number of reputable scientists (i.e., independent scientists whose opinions are not likely to be influenced by the fact that they work or were contracted by high-emissions producing industries) who dispute global warming outnumbers the number of reputable scientists who don't dispute it as a scientific fact? This is not the same as saying that there is dissent. We know there is--it's just that the dissent has not yet been provided by reputable, independent scientist with strong supporting evidence that is contrary to what is general scientific opinion. There are still people out there who dispute that the world is round and not flat. Just because they dispute it doesn't mean that their opinion is scientifically reputable.

You see, this isn't about whether or not people have opinions that differ. It's about what people believe that we know is not true. For example, the racist-based misconception that President Obama is not a citizen, that 31% of Fox viewers believe; a claim never, ever made about any other presidential candidate. Two birth certificates and testimony from the Clerk of Records for the State of Hawaii have already proved that he is a citizen. If you truly can, provide reputable, solid evidence that he is not a citizen. You can't, and I would ask what your motive is for wanting to prove that he's not. After all, we've had other presidents with whom I'm sure you and others have violently disagreed, and yet no attempts have been made to disprove their citizenship. I wonder why? Can you tell me?

Example 2: 17 points more likely to believe Muslims want to establish Shariah law in America becomes muslim aspirations (NOTE - I've corrected the spelling of aspirations for you. Has there ever been any evidence collected, through polls at muslim centers of worship or perhaps through the US Census, or FBI investigations, that indicates that shariah law in the USA is an aspiration of all muslims? If so, please present it. There are indeed some who would like to see sharia law become law throughout the Western world. But there is no proof whatsoever that the majority of muslims--one of the largest and most ethnically diverse religions in the world--support shariah law.

Believing the opposite of measurable, evidence-supported realities is not the same as proving that they are not realities. You need evidence to prove that these are not merely your opinions, but rather provable realities. Believing that something is so because Fox says it is so, even in the face of mountains of evidence provided that proves otherwise demonstrates less interest in actually knowing the truth rather than just verifying one's opinion.

You also conveniently overlooked this: In fact, a study by the University of Maryland reveals, ignorance of Fox viewers actually increases the longer they watch the network. which clearly asserts that the numbers mentioned refer to people who are misinformed, despite your claim that no such statement is made by the author.

(no subject)

Date: 6/6/11 14:23 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] whoasksfinds.livejournal.com
Just because they dispute it doesn't mean that their opinion is scientifically reputable.

if someone asks you if scientists dispute global warming and you say no, doesn't that make you misinformed, since you just admitted that scientists do dispute global warming?

is an aspiration of all muslims?

the question doesn't ask if all muslims want to establish shariah. since we know that some actually do, answering yes to the question does not make you misinformed.

it wouldn't be that hard to do a similiar survey of MSNBC viewers and make them look misinformed by asking questions about 9/11 conspiracy theories and the surge in iraq. pretty sure they would be more likely to say that Bush and Cheney were behind the attacks and that the surge didn't work. the survey was just done to make liberals feel better about themselves.

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From: [identity profile] telemann.livejournal.com - Date: 6/6/11 16:40 (UTC) - Expand

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From: [identity profile] whoasksfinds.livejournal.com - Date: 7/6/11 02:12 (UTC) - Expand

LOOLOLOLO0LOLOLOLOL!!!!

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Date: 6/6/11 11:37 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
Some things are to be questioned. The idea that Jesus rode a Triceratops to Golgotha and biologists, chemists, and astronomists are all secretly concealing that the Universe was created 6,000 years ago in lines exactly according to the Bible relative to the science is not one of those things.

Not even touching Climate Shift

Date: 6/6/11 13:32 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mybodymycoffin.livejournal.com
From the article "Sharia law is spreading as authority wanes" (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1535478/Sharia-law-is-spreading-as-authority-wanes.html)

Islamic sharia law is gaining an increasing foothold in parts of Britain, a report claims. ...
Mr Yusuf told the programme he felt more bound by the traditional law of his birth than by the laws of his adopted country. "Us Somalis, wherever we are in the world, we have our own law," he said. "It's not sharia, it's not religious — it's just a cultural thing."
"It's not sharia, it's not religious — it's just a cultural thing."
"It's not sharia, it's not religious
"It's not sharia
Islamic sharia law is gaining an increasing foothold in parts of Britain, a report claims.

The article also doesn't say what you say it says (ie: Muslims want to "supplant western law with Shariah"). Did you even read the article, or are you just a liar?

Watching Fox News is scientifically proven to make you stupid: I suggest you stop.

Normally I enjoy your posts, but..

Date: 6/6/11 15:15 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] squidb0i.livejournal.com
.. all you've done here is prove what you've sought to disprove. =[

(no subject)

Date: 6/6/11 15:17 (UTC)
weswilson: (Default)
From: [personal profile] weswilson
While I salute your effort to challenge basic assumptions, the issues you think could be examples of misinformation are entirely working against you. As many of the above replies have clarified, the only remaining significant debate regarding AGW is political. As for Sharia Law, only 2% of America is muslim, and very few of those 2% are interested in putting it in place. http://www.arabdetroit.com/news.php?id=2725

George Bush didn't lie about Iraq, and I don't know too many people who actually believe he did. I do know many, many people who recognize he deliberately ignored evidence that worked against his case, and never backed away from his agenda even when evidence mounted that he was misinformed. Is being a myopic bigot as bad as lying? Probably not... but it's still not something that should maintain the respect of so many republicans who continue to regurgitate his talking points.

and really? Palin? That's one of your lines in the sand?

The right wing has continue to ignore any evidence that refutes their agenda. And sure, there are left-wingers who think capitalism is evil, all war is unjustified, and homeopaths should replace the drug industry.... but the relative respectability of those opinions is vastly imbalanced. Left-wing kooks aren't being elected to office, and the certainly aren't getting Beck-esque attention.

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