Government
16/5/11 11:05I'm sorry if this would sound like bashing to some, what I'm trying to achieve here is to possibly understand some things, so help me out if you will, and correct me where you think I'm wrong. I used to think it's weird how obsessed Americans are with this "bogeyman called Government" and their desperate desire to keep it as away from their personal affairs as possible - but in fact when you think about it, it's understandable.
The way a completely layman outsider like myself sees it, there are two main factors for this attitude.
1. The historical/cultural one. It's this admirable proneness of the American culture to distrust heavy authority and rely on the skills of the individual to achieve betterment. It's the core principle around which the American society was created, after all. It's inherent to this culture to distrust authority, government, monarchy, or anyone who wields excessive power. It's also this individualistic approach (which, if brought to extremes however, could be equally harmful and counter-productive as extreme collectivism is; because no extreme is ever good). These traits of American society are what makes that country great, and truly an example to emulate. It's what drove its progress beyond any other's, and what stays at the core of the democratic principles which many other societies can only dream of achieving.
2. But beyond that, there's another reason why Americans would distrust government and often hate it in their guts. For an outsider who has seen "the other way" (I live in Sweden), it may not be as apparent as you'd imagine it to be, and it could just seem like a peculiarity and nothing more. But it's as true as the first reason: Americans just haven't seen REAL, working, effective, smart government in ages. What they've seen is decades long growth of excessive authority all over the place, growth for its own sake, a government which has now spread way beyond the US borders and is casting its shade (er, I mean, "interests") overseas and into every corner of the world. Most other societies can feel it either directly or indirectly, it's been affecting them through various alleys, in many possible ways, from cultural, to economic to political. And for that purpose, it had to expand in order to match the new size of its hugely expanded interests. In that sense, it's understandable why many Americans, at a domestic level, would feel that the US governments ever since the world wars have been growing and expanding their powers and prerogatives, and entering territories where no one was used to seeing them.
But enough rambling on my part. I'm aware that "I'm not American, therefore I do not understand" (which however doesn't mean we shouldn't talk about it, right?) I'm prepared to be educated on the matter from people who, I'm sure, know much more on the matter than I do. But yes, that's my impression. My observations tell me that it's not just the inherent individualistic approach that makes Americans distrust authority; it's also the fact that they've been increasingly disgusted by the exponential growth of their government in the first place - no matter its color.
In a way, that's kind of sad. Because, as any resident of Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Finland, etc would probably tell you, it's not necessarily the government as such which is the root of all evil, although it could and in fact does often contribute to it if it's ineffective and corrupt. It's the way people (or well organized groups of people, or economic/trade entities with big interests not necessarily matching those of the society at large) are exploiting its functions for their purposes, twisting and perverting its role for their own personal or group gain. The fact of the matter is, a government could be both the source of the worst evils and the biggest achievements of a society. The question is not whether there should be one and whether it should be "big" or "small" (however you measure that). The question really is what kind of government it is, is it doing its job as it is supposed to be, or does it use its citizens as tools. In other words, is it truly "a government by the people, for the people" as the beautiful phrase postulates, or is it something completely different. And I think you'll agree that at the moment, it's been anything but the former. Look Into Your Heart My Son, You Know It To Be True.
The way a completely layman outsider like myself sees it, there are two main factors for this attitude.
1. The historical/cultural one. It's this admirable proneness of the American culture to distrust heavy authority and rely on the skills of the individual to achieve betterment. It's the core principle around which the American society was created, after all. It's inherent to this culture to distrust authority, government, monarchy, or anyone who wields excessive power. It's also this individualistic approach (which, if brought to extremes however, could be equally harmful and counter-productive as extreme collectivism is; because no extreme is ever good). These traits of American society are what makes that country great, and truly an example to emulate. It's what drove its progress beyond any other's, and what stays at the core of the democratic principles which many other societies can only dream of achieving.
2. But beyond that, there's another reason why Americans would distrust government and often hate it in their guts. For an outsider who has seen "the other way" (I live in Sweden), it may not be as apparent as you'd imagine it to be, and it could just seem like a peculiarity and nothing more. But it's as true as the first reason: Americans just haven't seen REAL, working, effective, smart government in ages. What they've seen is decades long growth of excessive authority all over the place, growth for its own sake, a government which has now spread way beyond the US borders and is casting its shade (er, I mean, "interests") overseas and into every corner of the world. Most other societies can feel it either directly or indirectly, it's been affecting them through various alleys, in many possible ways, from cultural, to economic to political. And for that purpose, it had to expand in order to match the new size of its hugely expanded interests. In that sense, it's understandable why many Americans, at a domestic level, would feel that the US governments ever since the world wars have been growing and expanding their powers and prerogatives, and entering territories where no one was used to seeing them.
But enough rambling on my part. I'm aware that "I'm not American, therefore I do not understand" (which however doesn't mean we shouldn't talk about it, right?) I'm prepared to be educated on the matter from people who, I'm sure, know much more on the matter than I do. But yes, that's my impression. My observations tell me that it's not just the inherent individualistic approach that makes Americans distrust authority; it's also the fact that they've been increasingly disgusted by the exponential growth of their government in the first place - no matter its color.
In a way, that's kind of sad. Because, as any resident of Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Finland, etc would probably tell you, it's not necessarily the government as such which is the root of all evil, although it could and in fact does often contribute to it if it's ineffective and corrupt. It's the way people (or well organized groups of people, or economic/trade entities with big interests not necessarily matching those of the society at large) are exploiting its functions for their purposes, twisting and perverting its role for their own personal or group gain. The fact of the matter is, a government could be both the source of the worst evils and the biggest achievements of a society. The question is not whether there should be one and whether it should be "big" or "small" (however you measure that). The question really is what kind of government it is, is it doing its job as it is supposed to be, or does it use its citizens as tools. In other words, is it truly "a government by the people, for the people" as the beautiful phrase postulates, or is it something completely different. And I think you'll agree that at the moment, it's been anything but the former. Look Into Your Heart My Son, You Know It To Be True.
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Date: 16/5/11 08:37 (UTC)This is true.
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Date: 16/5/11 10:19 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 16/5/11 10:36 (UTC);)
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Date: 16/5/11 10:38 (UTC)Oops. I did it again...
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Date: 16/5/11 10:56 (UTC)There's a reason why oppressive cultures shut down information sources from outside their own sources. Because these communications are beyond the reach of their internal propaganda.
Although America supports and encourages free speech, we still need an external view to give us an honest perspective. The problem is that our self-serving views have created our own system of internal propaganda.
This has been caused, in large part, because we really don't have a state controlled media and our individual and tribal biases have filled the void.
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Date: 16/5/11 11:31 (UTC)As for state-controlled media possibly providing "unbiased" look at things, I highly doubt it. Some examples instantly come to mind about some unpleasant regimes where the media are largely state-controlled.
Your second paragraph is universal for any society, not just America. Including mine.
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Date: 16/5/11 11:51 (UTC)I've never anticipated seeing a defense of state controlled media. I'm curious as to how you would have felt about the Bush Administration News Network's account of the runup to the war in Iraq, to give an example.
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Date: 16/5/11 15:39 (UTC)This. I get more substantive news about the US from the BBC and CBC than I ever do from any of the American networks. If I only listened to my own media I would not get the full picture, because outside networks talk about different aspects of US politics and culture than we do on the inside. People on the outside looking in, as it were, have a different--and one can argue a better perspective on what goes on from within.
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Date: 16/5/11 11:45 (UTC)Your #1 is apt, but your #2 is absolutely correct. It's correct, however, for a reason you didn't note.
It's not so much that many of us have never seen an effective, working, smart government. It's more that we're no longer convinced such a beast exists. You use a few nations as examples, and I'd argue that the move into further authoritarianism for whatever reason (greater good, historic "necessity," etc) is not effective or smart or something that works. You may disagree, and it may be cultural, but, to be blunt, I'm not sure there's anything you could show me personally that I haven't already seen or read that would convince me that the government that governs best is one other than one that governs least.
This is why I quoted the portion I did. This nation was founded on the idea that people were largely able to govern themselves, that a government exists to protect that basic right and little else. We've done well with this for a couple hundred years now, much to the chagrin of many who are here and oppose that mindset and do everything in their power to destroy it. Meanwhile, I was Europe devolve into further statism, and wonder if they ever learned anything from the first half of the 20th century.
I'm rambly. Hopefully some of this makes sense.
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Date: 16/5/11 11:56 (UTC)No I don't disagree that more authoritarianism is not necessarily effective. Statism is not the manna from heaven, that's for sure. What I disagree with is that you're putting those several nations in the same vein with authoritative ones, as if to make it sound like the ones I listed are authoritative. But I can understand why many people could have certain misconceptions about those nations, for the same reasons that I may be missing something about yours - simply lack of insight, for well understandable reasons.
My point is that a government which governs effectively and which communicates with its people in an effective and smart way and in a way that benefits the maximum number of segments of said society, is the way that governs best. It has less to do with its size as it has to do with the way it works.
It may be a cultural thing indeed. It may be that, like I said, I've seen the "other side" and how things could work in a fairly effective way without devolving into free-for-all individualism bordering on anarchism. There are still checks and balances and institutions that are held responsible in those societies, and I feel strange every tome someone who doesn't understand a thing about them ventures to give them as an example for some kind of super-statist, quasi-Stalinist dystopia. This is a hilarious argument to make. Not saying you are making it, but I've seen it enough times to believe that there's a certain pattern in some people's minds.
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Date: 16/5/11 12:24 (UTC)The USA's not so much in the vein of rights for all from a peaceful POV as we lie to ourselves that we are.
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Date: 16/5/11 11:51 (UTC)"Government is not a word. It's people. It's people who do the job. And whether you're working in a business you're working in government, there are rules. And you follow those rules. And it's the people in those positions who are responsible for. Not the government."
"It's sad that we've reached the point where 'government service' is a dirty word. Where it's shoveled behind. I come from D.C. My father worked for the government, and he did a hell of a fucking job for them, and I'm sick of people fucking demeaning it."
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Date: 16/5/11 12:00 (UTC)"A nation deserves exactly the leaders it gets". Or you could reverse it if you like.
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Date: 16/5/11 12:22 (UTC)I feel like people have a cynical view of government, that politicians aren't doing what is best for the country, but just whatever it will take to get reelected. Going along with this is the feeling that there are backroom deals which result in laws on the books for purposes that aren't necessary, but are a waste of taxpayer money and benefit the politician or his constituents at home.
I also think, and I really think this was crystallized in the '80s with Reagan, that the people who are the loudest about government think that only people like themselves matter. I don't think there is a sense of national unity today like there has been in the past, which affects how people view government actions.
It also seems like the federal government has been operating more and more in secret as the 20th century passed by. We still vote, but it's hard to say it's "by the people, for the people" if there isn't transparency. Though maybe it was always like that, and it's just apparent today because we have wider reaching media today than in the past.
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Date: 16/5/11 12:49 (UTC)This is a great point which reminds me of another hilarious argument that I'm hearing recently: "But, but, those nations you're citing are too small and homogeneous, you can't expect us, the huge diverse society, to be successful in reaching consensus, can you?"
Well, this fails on many levels. Not only the homogeneity of those nations is a myth which belongs to the past (I've provided proof here recently), but if we take the relatively high autonomy exercised by the US states, we could argue that comparing, say, Sweden, to the US is unfair. It'd be more apt to compare Sweden to North Carolina, or Michigan. When we move things onto that plane, they change somewhat, don't they? So if a nation the size and diversity of Sweden could choose an option and make it work, then a state like Michigan can, too.
And even if it was true that Sweden, or Denmark, is really that homogeneous a culture (which is not, in the 21st century), and even if it's so much smaller than the US as a whole, why would diversity matter so much in forming some basic consensus on some fundamental issues like "is health care a right or a privilege"? Finding consensus on certain important issues hasn't seemed to be so impossible in the past, even at times of great strife in the US. Somehow the argument shoots itself on its own.
I'm sorry for the tangent but I felt it needed to be said.
Good point about the increasingly apparent intransparency by the way.
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Date: 16/5/11 12:23 (UTC)2) In my view the difference between this and the none-too-efficient EU is not so great as it may seem. The USA has the Tea Party, but the EU currently has a wave of outright fascists like the Le Pens, the BNP, and other such movements who like their US counterparts piggyback Islamophobia to revive the *other* statism. Sure, the USA's Islamophobia is fucked up, and the inefficiencies of government see this as a scapegoat. That to me is not so easy to distinguish from Belgium, still without a government but able to ban Burkas.
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Date: 16/5/11 14:01 (UTC)If you call messing up with such non-issues like the banning of burqas for those 2000 Muslim women who wear them, as opposed to addressing the financial problems, "work".
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Date: 16/5/11 12:23 (UTC)The essential thing to understand is that many Americans have no problem with government, as long as it is a limited government. The idea of putting a limit on the power that the people who are running the government can exercise over the others in society does not seem like such a crazy-town idea, considering what happens when the people running the government are apt to do when they have unlimited power over their neighbors.
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Date: 16/5/11 12:25 (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 16/5/11 13:05 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 16/5/11 14:10 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 16/5/11 13:47 (UTC)My pet theory is largely economic, that the US has been riding high on the prosperity afforded after WWII. We are now four generations out, Europe and Eastern Asia have rebuilt their infrastructure, and the third world can now provide viable competition for quality goods. We really have not had to compete the entire time we've been a first world nation (prior to WWII we were kind of a backwater). Those days are over and the US is in a period of adjustment to being just another team member in the world economy. As with any transitional period we see various camps spring up: those who recognize the inevitable and want to proactively adjust for it, and those who dig in their heels in hopes of revitalizing what we used to be. Both ends dislike what government is doing, so largely it can't win.
Thirdly, the size of the US government is enormous. Any program under $500M is nothing more than an asterisk on the congressional books. So when the federal government does anything at all, it is going to be costly just to nudge the juggernaut in a different direction. It stands to reason then that even knowledgeable and involved people are skeptical of new federal programs, because so much is needed just to overcome inertia. This makes people cautious. This is largely the reason why another camp has sprung up in reducing the size and pushing more responsibility onto individual states. A corporate analogy to this situation is the small company vs the large one. Both have their place, but both work in completely different modes of operation.
But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong...
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Date: 16/5/11 14:09 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 16/5/11 14:04 (UTC)In the last 50 years or so, our schools have not done a good job teaching this, so more and more people don't understand the reason for limiting the federal government's power. They think it would be better to have one huge country, all homogeneous, with the rules the same no matter what state you live in. If they think about it at all, which most don't, they advocate getting rid of state governments altogether, as being a wasteful duplication, an extra layer we no longer need.
Conservatives like me, however, still believe in small federal government and LOCAL control. The people closest to the problems are better equipped to fix them. Plus, the states are like 50 separate proving grounds for ideas. Putting most of the power in the hands of Washington magnifies the effect of mistakes a thousand fold.
Imagine if people in the EU started advocating turning most power over to a central authority? Let's dissolve all the individual country's governments and go with one central legislature! Or why limit it to a continent? Let's do away with all countries, and have one world government! Take it to that extreme, and you can see why those of us who were taught the reasons for and the advantages of the USA system are horrified by the idea of the massively bloated federal government grabbing even more power. Health care? Education? Where does the constitution give Washington authority to make laws about these things? Those are matters for the STATES to decide!
So Sweden, your system may work great ... but are you willing to let Italy, Spain, and Greece have power to confiscate 25% of your funds and tell your citizens what to do? Well here in Texas, I feel the same. I want to take back the money and the power Washington has steadily stolen from our state and give it to our local governments to use as we see fit. I want Washington to concentrate on the few items legitimately under its power, such as defense, diplomacy, and interstate commerce.
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Date: 16/5/11 14:26 (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 16/5/11 14:25 (UTC)Benjamin Franklin was a special minister to France during our revolution. He was playing chess with a noble woman with whom he had become good friends. At one point Franklin made a surprising move and captured her King. She as astonished at this brash, unorthodox move and said "Dear sir, in France we do not take Kings in such a manner". Franklin replied "My dear lady, in America this is precisely what we do to Kings".
For an America any intrusion into ones private family life is obscene. And the sad thing is that many “patriotic” Americans have begun to lose sight of this.
You can also look at it this way. Looking at Europe from America we see a long history of bad attempts at governments. The French Revolution turned into a nightmare. Constant wars over land no one really cared about all in the name of imperialism (America did not get involved in this game until the very end of the 19th century) Europe fell to pieces during WW1 and the “good guys” spent several years asking for our help (when we did come to help it was minimal and late) . Then in WW2 it fell apart again and once again Europe asked for our help (this time our help was not only key but in the western front it was the salvation of Europe).
And all the while Americans are often met with some measure of derision for our ways and customs and traditions. For many Americans in history we became something of an empire only because Europe kept pulling us in the direction they were heading. Thsi last is one of the reasons Americas own government has been growing. You cant be involved in foreign politics without grwoing more powerful or surrendering the values you hold most dear.
I hope this offers some explanation.
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Date: 16/5/11 15:11 (UTC)The USA only ended the most blatant example after widespread terrorism, and the process of untangling that is far from over.
Yes, the French Revolution touched off a continental war. Your description of WWI and the USA role therein is extremely inaccurate, that of WWII even moreso.
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Date: 16/5/11 14:46 (UTC)Now can I have a beer from the mod team? :P
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Date: 16/5/11 16:07 (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 16/5/11 14:50 (UTC)The EU budget is SMALL compared to other government budgets: the 2007-13 budget totals €862 billion while the US budget for 2010 alone is $2,480 billion.
The EU is specifically NOT a federal government, in the way that Germany has a federal government, the US, Mexico, Brazil, etc. It's mostly a trade and political union designed to promote and develop Europe.
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Date: 16/5/11 15:04 (UTC)The contrast is telling. I have European friends who simply don't understand why I balk and bigger federal government, but they are already horrified at some of the concessions they've made to belong to the EU. D'oh!
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Date: 16/5/11 17:01 (UTC)PROTIP #1: You want to reword your post from the POV of the federal government as opposed to government. cct1138 makes some good points above, which is closer to truth than your slanted view.
PROTIP #2: Most Americans don't consider the (federal) government to be "the root of all evil." The correct notions are distrust, incompetent, & inefficient.
PROTIP #3: Why should any American give a damn what Europeans think of their government? Perhaps you can give some factual examples as opposed to asking us to "just trust us Europeans." I challenge you to give some unique, good points that the community is not familiar with (not free healthcare, gun control, etc.).
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Date: 16/5/11 17:05 (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 17/5/11 02:49 (UTC)I am not sure if americans distrust authority however it is probably true. Even though 43% of americans feel it is luck we have not been attacked again, they also have done nothing to change how they vote.