[identity profile] luvdovz.livejournal.com posting in [community profile] talkpolitics
I'm sorry if this would sound like bashing to some, what I'm trying to achieve here is to possibly understand some things, so help me out if you will, and correct me where you think I'm wrong. I used to think it's weird how obsessed Americans are with this "bogeyman called Government" and their desperate desire to keep it as away from their personal affairs as possible - but in fact when you think about it, it's understandable.

The way a completely layman outsider like myself sees it, there are two main factors for this attitude.

1. The historical/cultural one. It's this admirable proneness of the American culture to distrust heavy authority and rely on the skills of the individual to achieve betterment. It's the core principle around which the American society was created, after all. It's inherent to this culture to distrust authority, government, monarchy, or anyone who wields excessive power. It's also this individualistic approach (which, if brought to extremes however, could be equally harmful and counter-productive as extreme collectivism is; because no extreme is ever good). These traits of American society are what makes that country great, and truly an example to emulate. It's what drove its progress beyond any other's, and what stays at the core of the democratic principles which many other societies can only dream of achieving.

2. But beyond that, there's another reason why Americans would distrust government and often hate it in their guts. For an outsider who has seen "the other way" (I live in Sweden), it may not be as apparent as you'd imagine it to be, and it could just seem like a peculiarity and nothing more. But it's as true as the first reason: Americans just haven't seen REAL, working, effective, smart government in ages. What they've seen is decades long growth of excessive authority all over the place, growth for its own sake, a government which has now spread way beyond the US borders and is casting its shade (er, I mean, "interests") overseas and into every corner of the world. Most other societies can feel it either directly or indirectly, it's been affecting them through various alleys, in many possible ways, from cultural, to economic to political. And for that purpose, it had to expand in order to match the new size of its hugely expanded interests. In that sense, it's understandable why many Americans, at a domestic level, would feel that the US governments ever since the world wars have been growing and expanding their powers and prerogatives, and entering territories where no one was used to seeing them.

But enough rambling on my part. I'm aware that "I'm not American, therefore I do not understand" (which however doesn't mean we shouldn't talk about it, right?) I'm prepared to be educated on the matter from people who, I'm sure, know much more on the matter than I do. But yes, that's my impression. My observations tell me that it's not just the inherent individualistic approach that makes Americans distrust authority; it's also the fact that they've been increasingly disgusted by the exponential growth of their government in the first place - no matter its color.

In a way, that's kind of sad. Because, as any resident of Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Finland, etc would probably tell you, it's not necessarily the government as such which is the root of all evil, although it could and in fact does often contribute to it if it's ineffective and corrupt. It's the way people (or well organized groups of people, or economic/trade entities with big interests not necessarily matching those of the society at large) are exploiting its functions for their purposes, twisting and perverting its role for their own personal or group gain. The fact of the matter is, a government could be both the source of the worst evils and the biggest achievements of a society. The question is not whether there should be one and whether it should be "big" or "small" (however you measure that). The question really is what kind of government it is, is it doing its job as it is supposed to be, or does it use its citizens as tools. In other words, is it truly "a government by the people, for the people" as the beautiful phrase postulates, or is it something completely different. And I think you'll agree that at the moment, it's been anything but the former. Look Into Your Heart My Son, You Know It To Be True.

(no subject)

Date: 16/5/11 08:37 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] airiefairie.livejournal.com
because no extreme is ever good

This is true.

(no subject)

Date: 16/5/11 10:19 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] johnny9fingers.livejournal.com
I agree, but you can't tell that to folk.

(no subject)

Date: 16/5/11 10:36 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ddstory.livejournal.com
"Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice."

;)

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] johnny9fingers.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 11:25 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] ddstory.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 11:34 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] johnny9fingers.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 13:44 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] ddstory.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 13:54 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] mahnmut.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 18:35 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 16/5/11 14:57 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] debergerac.livejournal.com
extremely.

(no subject)

Date: 16/5/11 10:34 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mahnmut.livejournal.com
You funny Nordskis and your funny way of presenting your points in a sensible, nice, uncontroversial and concise way... How can anyone possibly argue anything with you? Buzkillers. DUH.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] mahnmut.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 12:40 (UTC) - Expand
(deleted comment)

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] abomvubuso.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 18:38 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] abomvubuso.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 19:17 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] geezer-also.livejournal.com - Date: 17/5/11 05:52 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 16/5/11 10:56 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] stewstewstewdio.livejournal.com
I'm not American, therefore I do not understand

There's a reason why oppressive cultures shut down information sources from outside their own sources. Because these communications are beyond the reach of their internal propaganda.

Although America supports and encourages free speech, we still need an external view to give us an honest perspective. The problem is that our self-serving views have created our own system of internal propaganda.

This has been caused, in large part, because we really don't have a state controlled media and our individual and tribal biases have filled the void.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] stewstewstewdio.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 11:43 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 11:56 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] htpcl.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 12:02 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 16/5/11 11:51 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com
This has been caused, in large part, because we really don't have a state controlled media and our individual and tribal biases have filled the void.

I've never anticipated seeing a defense of state controlled media. I'm curious as to how you would have felt about the Bush Administration News Network's account of the runup to the war in Iraq, to give an example.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] stewstewstewdio.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 12:03 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] the-rukh.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 14:20 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 16/5/11 15:39 (UTC)
ext_3190: Red icon with logo "I drink Nozz-a-la- Cola" in cursive. (DT: other worlds)
From: [identity profile] primroseburrows.livejournal.com
Although America supports and encourages free speech, we still need an external view to give us an honest perspective. The problem is that our self-serving views have created our own system of internal propaganda.


This. I get more substantive news about the US from the BBC and CBC than I ever do from any of the American networks. If I only listened to my own media I would not get the full picture, because outside networks talk about different aspects of US politics and culture than we do on the inside. People on the outside looking in, as it were, have a different--and one can argue a better perspective on what goes on from within.

(no subject)

Date: 16/5/11 11:45 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com
The question is not whether there should be one and whether it should be "big" or "small" (however you measure that). The question really is what kind of government it is, is it doing its job as it is supposed to be, or does it use its citizens as tools.

Your #1 is apt, but your #2 is absolutely correct. It's correct, however, for a reason you didn't note.

It's not so much that many of us have never seen an effective, working, smart government. It's more that we're no longer convinced such a beast exists. You use a few nations as examples, and I'd argue that the move into further authoritarianism for whatever reason (greater good, historic "necessity," etc) is not effective or smart or something that works. You may disagree, and it may be cultural, but, to be blunt, I'm not sure there's anything you could show me personally that I haven't already seen or read that would convince me that the government that governs best is one other than one that governs least.

This is why I quoted the portion I did. This nation was founded on the idea that people were largely able to govern themselves, that a government exists to protect that basic right and little else. We've done well with this for a couple hundred years now, much to the chagrin of many who are here and oppose that mindset and do everything in their power to destroy it. Meanwhile, I was Europe devolve into further statism, and wonder if they ever learned anything from the first half of the 20th century.

I'm rambly. Hopefully some of this makes sense.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] ddstory.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 12:07 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 14:24 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] geezer-also.livejournal.com - Date: 17/5/11 06:05 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] raven-blue.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 14:32 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 15:15 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] raven-blue.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 15:35 (UTC) - Expand

Yeahbuhwat?

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 15:50 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Yeahbuhwat?

From: [identity profile] raven-blue.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 16:19 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Yeahbuhwat?

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 16:57 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 16/5/11 12:24 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
Yes, if by people we mean rich white landowners in classic 18th century British mindsets. The right of people to govern themselves had to be won at the barrel of a gun, if you don't believe me, just ask the USCT regiments who won their people's freedom in defeating the largest and most insidious treason in the country's history. Just ask the rioters in the Long Hot Summers who scared the piss out of white America enough to ensure that Jim Crow fell.

The USA's not so much in the vein of rights for all from a peaceful POV as we lie to ourselves that we are.

(no subject)

Date: 16/5/11 11:51 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kylinrouge.livejournal.com
Lewis Black put it succintly: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPOGzBJfQSo

"Government is not a word. It's people. It's people who do the job. And whether you're working in a business you're working in government, there are rules. And you follow those rules. And it's the people in those positions who are responsible for. Not the government."

"It's sad that we've reached the point where 'government service' is a dirty word. Where it's shoveled behind. I come from D.C. My father worked for the government, and he did a hell of a fucking job for them, and I'm sick of people fucking demeaning it."

(no subject)

Date: 16/5/11 12:00 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] htpcl.livejournal.com
Reminds me of another proverb (because I'm full of them):

"A nation deserves exactly the leaders it gets". Or you could reverse it if you like.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] gunslnger.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 20:30 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] kylinrouge.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 21:06 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] gunslnger.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 23:48 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] kylinrouge.livejournal.com - Date: 17/5/11 03:40 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] gunslnger.livejournal.com - Date: 17/5/11 07:21 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] kylinrouge.livejournal.com - Date: 17/5/11 07:59 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 16/5/11 12:22 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] musicpsych.livejournal.com
I think there have always been Americans who have distrusted the federal government, who have been more about state's rights and individual rights. So there's that. (At the same time, there have always been a significant number of Americans who are not distrustful of the federal government.) You could also probably argue that the people who complain about the government the most are the ones whose party is not in power at the time.

I feel like people have a cynical view of government, that politicians aren't doing what is best for the country, but just whatever it will take to get reelected. Going along with this is the feeling that there are backroom deals which result in laws on the books for purposes that aren't necessary, but are a waste of taxpayer money and benefit the politician or his constituents at home.

I also think, and I really think this was crystallized in the '80s with Reagan, that the people who are the loudest about government think that only people like themselves matter. I don't think there is a sense of national unity today like there has been in the past, which affects how people view government actions.

It also seems like the federal government has been operating more and more in secret as the 20th century passed by. We still vote, but it's hard to say it's "by the people, for the people" if there isn't transparency. Though maybe it was always like that, and it's just apparent today because we have wider reaching media today than in the past.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] blue-mangos.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 12:54 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] abomvubuso.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 13:22 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] ddstory.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 13:24 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] abomvubuso.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 13:29 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] baby-werewolf.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 14:22 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] geezer-also.livejournal.com - Date: 17/5/11 06:27 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] abomvubuso.livejournal.com - Date: 17/5/11 06:31 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] geezer-also.livejournal.com - Date: 17/5/11 06:49 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] abomvubuso.livejournal.com - Date: 17/5/11 06:53 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] geezer-also.livejournal.com - Date: 17/5/11 06:56 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] abomvubuso.livejournal.com - Date: 17/5/11 06:59 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] geezer-also.livejournal.com - Date: 17/5/11 06:52 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] kylinrouge.livejournal.com - Date: 17/5/11 16:27 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] eracerhead.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 14:16 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] telemann.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 16:29 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] telemann.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 18:59 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] telemann.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 19:09 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] geezer-also.livejournal.com - Date: 17/5/11 06:35 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] blue-mangos.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 14:29 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] eracerhead.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 18:26 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] eracerhead.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 20:07 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] anfalicious.livejournal.com - Date: 17/5/11 03:10 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] anfalicious.livejournal.com - Date: 17/5/11 03:08 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] geezer-also.livejournal.com - Date: 17/5/11 06:37 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] eracerhead.livejournal.com - Date: 17/5/11 14:24 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] telemann.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 16:45 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] eracerhead.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 13:52 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] eracerhead.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 18:32 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] gunslnger.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 20:33 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] gunslnger.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 23:50 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] raichu100.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 17:53 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 16/5/11 12:23 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
1) A factor grossly exaggerated. It might be more accurate to say that the group of people in the USA who thinks the government should provide welfare have only ever been a minority, and usually a despised and mislabeled one but plenty of people in the USA have been fine with a government that censors books, regulates immigration quotas, backs apartheid at home, and has a tradition of Sedition Acts.

2) In my view the difference between this and the none-too-efficient EU is not so great as it may seem. The USA has the Tea Party, but the EU currently has a wave of outright fascists like the Le Pens, the BNP, and other such movements who like their US counterparts piggyback Islamophobia to revive the *other* statism. Sure, the USA's Islamophobia is fucked up, and the inefficiencies of government see this as a scapegoat. That to me is not so easy to distinguish from Belgium, still without a government but able to ban Burkas.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 14:11 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 14:36 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 16/5/11 12:23 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] policraticus.livejournal.com
Have you ever read the Federalist Papers or the Anti-Federalist Papers? Or the US Constitution, for that matter?

The essential thing to understand is that many Americans have no problem with government, as long as it is a limited government. The idea of putting a limit on the power that the people who are running the government can exercise over the others in society does not seem like such a crazy-town idea, considering what happens when the people running the government are apt to do when they have unlimited power over their neighbors.

(no subject)

Date: 16/5/11 12:25 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
By limited meaning a government that cracks down on women and POCs but not businesses. Because J.P. Morgan the single-handed bailer-outer of the US government is less terrifying than black people legally equal to whites and legally able to marry them.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] policraticus.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 15:05 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 15:12 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] policraticus.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 15:17 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 15:24 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] policraticus.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 15:31 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 15:51 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] policraticus.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 15:54 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 16:36 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] jerseycajun.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 16:48 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 17:05 (UTC) - Expand

...

From: [identity profile] jerseycajun.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 17:15 (UTC) - Expand

...

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 17:16 (UTC) - Expand

...

From: [identity profile] jerseycajun.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 17:27 (UTC) - Expand

...

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 19:37 (UTC) - Expand

...

From: [identity profile] jerseycajun.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 19:57 (UTC) - Expand

...

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 20:01 (UTC) - Expand

...

From: [identity profile] jerseycajun.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 20:04 (UTC) - Expand

...

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 20:08 (UTC) - Expand

...

From: [identity profile] jerseycajun.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 20:11 (UTC) - Expand

...

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 20:19 (UTC) - Expand

...

From: [identity profile] jerseycajun.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 20:33 (UTC) - Expand

...

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 21:42 (UTC) - Expand

...

From: [identity profile] jerseycajun.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 23:21 (UTC) - Expand

...

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 17/5/11 00:50 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] weswilson - Date: 16/5/11 13:08 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] policraticus.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 13:53 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] weswilson - Date: 16/5/11 14:24 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] policraticus.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 14:57 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] weswilson - Date: 16/5/11 19:04 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] htpcl.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 14:05 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 14:24 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] weswilson - Date: 16/5/11 14:38 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] rasilio.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 16:45 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] telemann.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 16:53 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] weswilson - Date: 16/5/11 19:01 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 16:59 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] weswilson - Date: 16/5/11 19:16 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] weswilson - Date: 16/5/11 19:17 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] debergerac.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 19:28 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] weswilson - Date: 16/5/11 19:40 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] debergerac.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 20:13 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] weswilson - Date: 16/5/11 20:19 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] gunslnger.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 20:46 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] debergerac.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 21:59 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] weswilson - Date: 16/5/11 22:20 (UTC) - Expand

...

From: [identity profile] debergerac.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 22:42 (UTC) - Expand

...

From: [identity profile] debergerac.livejournal.com - Date: 17/5/11 15:15 (UTC) - Expand

...

From: [identity profile] debergerac.livejournal.com - Date: 17/5/11 18:07 (UTC) - Expand

...

From: [identity profile] debergerac.livejournal.com - Date: 18/5/11 01:24 (UTC) - Expand

...

From: [identity profile] debergerac.livejournal.com - Date: 17/5/11 18:13 (UTC) - Expand

...

From: [identity profile] debergerac.livejournal.com - Date: 18/5/11 01:30 (UTC) - Expand

...

From: [identity profile] debergerac.livejournal.com - Date: 18/5/11 16:45 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] gunslnger.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 20:43 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 15:16 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 16:58 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 17:18 (UTC) - Expand
(deleted comment)

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] policraticus.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 16:49 (UTC) - Expand
(deleted comment)

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 19:58 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 19:52 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] jerseycajun.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 20:43 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 21:44 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] jerseycajun.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 23:32 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 17/5/11 01:08 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] jerseycajun.livejournal.com - Date: 17/5/11 01:26 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 17/5/11 01:49 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 19:52 (UTC) - Expand
(deleted comment)

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 19:56 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 16/5/11 13:05 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nairiporter.livejournal.com
Great discussion so far, mostly thanks to the clearly defined points and the fact that it's a deep topic with profound implications. I cannot claim to know enough about the American society to be able to give definite statements so I will just sit back and enjoy before it has devolved into petty bickering between partisan camps. ;-)

(no subject)

Date: 16/5/11 14:10 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] htpcl.livejournal.com
This is seconded.

(no subject)

Date: 16/5/11 13:47 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] eracerhead.livejournal.com
To get an idea of what is happening in the US, watch the first 15 minutes of Idiocracy (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0387808/). The successes of local government is largely invisible and aren't really recognized, they are just taken for granted. The average person is completely surprised at how much it costs to build and maintain roads and bridges for example. The average American knows nothing about what life is like without these services largely because in most places, things haven't gotten bad enough to be noticed, and most people erroneously believe they are capable of living without them because nobody has educated them.

My pet theory is largely economic, that the US has been riding high on the prosperity afforded after WWII. We are now four generations out, Europe and Eastern Asia have rebuilt their infrastructure, and the third world can now provide viable competition for quality goods. We really have not had to compete the entire time we've been a first world nation (prior to WWII we were kind of a backwater). Those days are over and the US is in a period of adjustment to being just another team member in the world economy. As with any transitional period we see various camps spring up: those who recognize the inevitable and want to proactively adjust for it, and those who dig in their heels in hopes of revitalizing what we used to be. Both ends dislike what government is doing, so largely it can't win.

Thirdly, the size of the US government is enormous. Any program under $500M is nothing more than an asterisk on the congressional books. So when the federal government does anything at all, it is going to be costly just to nudge the juggernaut in a different direction. It stands to reason then that even knowledgeable and involved people are skeptical of new federal programs, because so much is needed just to overcome inertia. This makes people cautious. This is largely the reason why another camp has sprung up in reducing the size and pushing more responsibility onto individual states. A corporate analogy to this situation is the small company vs the large one. Both have their place, but both work in completely different modes of operation.

But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong...

(no subject)

Date: 16/5/11 14:09 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] htpcl.livejournal.com
You make an interesting point. My country and those around it have gone through long periods of trouble, both economic and political, and people have seen what true misery is. While it may have toughened them and made them more resilient, it has also made them more realistic, if a bit to cynical. They know so well what it takes to achieve... something, because they've seen what it is to be deprived of that... something. And that's what makes them the more sensitive, the moment someone tries to take it away from them. We just cannot afford to take things for granted, otherwise we'd fall off board.

(no subject)

Date: 16/5/11 14:04 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ccr1138.livejournal.com
As an American, my take on it is that our mindset is different from, say, a European's because we are a nation made up of sovereign states. Think of the EU: each nation (state) in the EU is very resistant to being told by the other states how to run its own society. Each EU state has its own government, constitution, economy, etc. That is the way the states function in the United States. Our constitution very deliberately limited the federal government's power to a few key areas, and reserved all other powers for the individual states or the citizens.

In the last 50 years or so, our schools have not done a good job teaching this, so more and more people don't understand the reason for limiting the federal government's power. They think it would be better to have one huge country, all homogeneous, with the rules the same no matter what state you live in. If they think about it at all, which most don't, they advocate getting rid of state governments altogether, as being a wasteful duplication, an extra layer we no longer need.

Conservatives like me, however, still believe in small federal government and LOCAL control. The people closest to the problems are better equipped to fix them. Plus, the states are like 50 separate proving grounds for ideas. Putting most of the power in the hands of Washington magnifies the effect of mistakes a thousand fold.

Imagine if people in the EU started advocating turning most power over to a central authority? Let's dissolve all the individual country's governments and go with one central legislature! Or why limit it to a continent? Let's do away with all countries, and have one world government! Take it to that extreme, and you can see why those of us who were taught the reasons for and the advantages of the USA system are horrified by the idea of the massively bloated federal government grabbing even more power. Health care? Education? Where does the constitution give Washington authority to make laws about these things? Those are matters for the STATES to decide!

So Sweden, your system may work great ... but are you willing to let Italy, Spain, and Greece have power to confiscate 25% of your funds and tell your citizens what to do? Well here in Texas, I feel the same. I want to take back the money and the power Washington has steadily stolen from our state and give it to our local governments to use as we see fit. I want Washington to concentrate on the few items legitimately under its power, such as defense, diplomacy, and interstate commerce.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] peamasii.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 14:42 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] ccr1138.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 14:58 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] peamasii.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 15:01 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 15:13 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] ccr1138.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 15:24 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 16:44 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] ccr1138.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 17:31 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 19:38 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] gunslnger.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 21:00 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 21:49 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] jerseycajun.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 16:41 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 16:48 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] jerseycajun.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 16:58 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 17:20 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] jerseycajun.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 17:42 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 20:10 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] jerseycajun.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 20:26 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 21:50 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] rasilio.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 16:52 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 17:20 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] gunslnger.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 20:59 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 21:51 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] gunslnger.livejournal.com - Date: 17/5/11 00:00 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 17/5/11 00:51 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 16/5/11 14:25 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] raven-blue.livejournal.com
You make some really good points. There are some modern governments that we Americans consider to be too big (myself included) yet they work for their people. And that is the key, their people. A government should not be forced on anyone. In the case of some of the working governments in Europe the people have had a hand in guiding them the way they see fit. What bothers Americas is when we are criticized for not "understanding" or not wanting some other form of government. I think the best way to understand who we are historically is by way of a little story (and it is true).
Benjamin Franklin was a special minister to France during our revolution. He was playing chess with a noble woman with whom he had become good friends. At one point Franklin made a surprising move and captured her King. She as astonished at this brash, unorthodox move and said "Dear sir, in France we do not take Kings in such a manner". Franklin replied "My dear lady, in America this is precisely what we do to Kings".
For an America any intrusion into ones private family life is obscene. And the sad thing is that many “patriotic” Americans have begun to lose sight of this.
You can also look at it this way. Looking at Europe from America we see a long history of bad attempts at governments. The French Revolution turned into a nightmare. Constant wars over land no one really cared about all in the name of imperialism (America did not get involved in this game until the very end of the 19th century) Europe fell to pieces during WW1 and the “good guys” spent several years asking for our help (when we did come to help it was minimal and late) . Then in WW2 it fell apart again and once again Europe asked for our help (this time our help was not only key but in the western front it was the salvation of Europe).
And all the while Americans are often met with some measure of derision for our ways and customs and traditions. For many Americans in history we became something of an empire only because Europe kept pulling us in the direction they were heading. Thsi last is one of the reasons Americas own government has been growing. You cant be involved in foreign politics without grwoing more powerful or surrendering the values you hold most dear.

I hope this offers some explanation.

(no subject)

Date: 16/5/11 15:11 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
It's not like the US experiment has any that much greater a history of actually working. The Founders chose the easy way out of dividing the USA on perhaps irreconcilable lines, which in 80 years split the country in two in a four year civil war that ruined one half the country. That same half became dictatorships for the century following the Grant Administration and in that half massacres and medieval-style sackings like at Rosewood were standard vents, while the United States had plenty of racist authoritarianism in the North and the West.

The USA only ended the most blatant example after widespread terrorism, and the process of untangling that is far from over.

Yes, the French Revolution touched off a continental war. Your description of WWI and the USA role therein is extremely inaccurate, that of WWII even moreso.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] raven-blue.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 15:30 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 15:49 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] raven-blue.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 16:09 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 16:46 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] raven-blue.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 17:17 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 17:24 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] raven-blue.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 19:00 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] telemann.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 19:15 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 19:41 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] raven-blue.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 20:36 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 21:58 (UTC) - Expand

...

From: [identity profile] raven-blue.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 22:21 (UTC) - Expand

...

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 22:40 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 16/5/11 14:46 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] luzribeiro.livejournal.com
Example for small, invisible but effective government: [livejournal.com profile] talk_politics.

Now can I have a beer from the mod team? :P

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] luzribeiro.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 17:39 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] htpcl.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 18:57 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] gunslnger.livejournal.com - Date: 17/5/11 00:05 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 16/5/11 14:50 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] peamasii.livejournal.com
I get a feeling that some people don't realize that the US cannot be compared to the EU.

The EU budget is SMALL compared to other government budgets: the 2007-13 budget totals €862 billion while the US budget for 2010 alone is $2,480 billion.

The EU is specifically NOT a federal government, in the way that Germany has a federal government, the US, Mexico, Brazil, etc. It's mostly a trade and political union designed to promote and develop Europe.

(no subject)

Date: 16/5/11 15:04 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ccr1138.livejournal.com
LOL. You say they can't be compared, then you compare them. :D

The contrast is telling. I have European friends who simply don't understand why I balk and bigger federal government, but they are already horrified at some of the concessions they've made to belong to the EU. D'oh!

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] htpcl.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 18:58 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 16/5/11 17:01 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] korean-guy-01.livejournal.com
Your post doesn't appear to be bashing, but it is very telling in its ignorance as you make your arguments from extremist sources as opposed to the mainstream. Do some more investigating.

PROTIP #1: You want to reword your post from the POV of the federal government as opposed to government. cct1138 makes some good points above, which is closer to truth than your slanted view.
PROTIP #2: Most Americans don't consider the (federal) government to be "the root of all evil." The correct notions are distrust, incompetent, & inefficient.
PROTIP #3: Why should any American give a damn what Europeans think of their government? Perhaps you can give some factual examples as opposed to asking us to "just trust us Europeans." I challenge you to give some unique, good points that the community is not familiar with (not free healthcare, gun control, etc.).

(no subject)

Date: 16/5/11 17:05 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] debergerac.livejournal.com
hey now, europe has produced some very special governments over the past few millenia...

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] debergerac.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 19:08 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] telemann.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 21:00 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] debergerac.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 22:07 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] telemann.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 22:25 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 22:27 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] capthek.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 23:15 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 19:43 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] soliloquy76.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 20:41 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] ddstory.livejournal.com - Date: 16/5/11 20:43 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] korean-guy-01.livejournal.com - Date: 17/5/11 01:46 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] soliloquy76.livejournal.com - Date: 17/5/11 02:14 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] korean-guy-01.livejournal.com - Date: 17/5/11 02:16 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] soliloquy76.livejournal.com - Date: 17/5/11 02:23 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] the-rukh.livejournal.com - Date: 17/5/11 06:25 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 17/5/11 02:49 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] aerashive.livejournal.com
I think it is probably best to note that most americans do not vote on foreign policy (http://nationalinterest.org/commentary/voting-foreign-policy-oblivion-4491). 8% of americans said that foreign policy influences who they elect. This is probably true for most countries (although I have no facts to prove it) when they go to vote. There has been questions asked to policticans why they do not campaign on foreign policy, and the gist of it is because no one cares (meaning it is not what people want to hear). Meaning that americans are centric to their own interests, yes we have all that feel good stuff, like sending aid etc to other countries. People care about themselves, it is probably human nature not to care about some sweedish kid millions of miles around the world.

I am not sure if americans distrust authority however it is probably true. Even though 43% of americans feel it is luck we have not been attacked again, they also have done nothing to change how they vote.

Credits & Style Info

Monthly topic:
Post-Truth Politics Revisited

Dailyquote:
"The NATO charter clearly says that any attack on a NATO member shall be treated, by all members, as an attack against all. So that means that, if we attack Greenland, we'll be obligated to go to war against ... ourselves! Gee, that's scary. You really don't want to go to war with the United States. They're insane!"

May 2026

M T W T F S S
     1 23
4567 8910
11 121314 1516 17
1819 2021222324
25262728293031