No, seriously:

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

I've heard people complain about the killing of Osama Bin Laden and how we shouldn't have shot an unarmed 54 y/o on dialysis*. But seriously:

what would we have done if we had captured Osama Bin Laden alive?

Put him on trial?
How? Find me a jury of 12 impartial Americans on this topic. C'mon. Try. No such thing as a fair trial (since you need those 12 impartial jury members) for this guy in the US.
We gonna let non-Americans decide this guys fate?

We could just stomach the sham trial where 12 Americans decide he's guilty (in a surprise verdict! lol) and then what? Then we kill him anyway**.

And to be cynical for just a moment, but then we gotta safely harbor OBL for the duration of the trial and prevent any attempts to rescue him. Seems unnecessary.

Lastly: do we need to draw out the pain of 9/11 with this? Quick, like plucking a band-aid is how to do it.

*not directed at members here, IRL people have said this too, so no personal jab meant by that

**And if anyone would suggest life in prison instead of execution would multiply the risk of having OBL on our soil over time.

Comments

[qnetter]

Morally sound choices sometimes involve risk.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

So what would you suggest, exactly?

[chessdev.livejournal.com]

Morality is subjective.

Please define "morally sound" as how you're using it?

[mrsilence.livejournal.com]

Remembering that lawful is not equivalent to moral, shooting Osama Bin Laden dead was probably amongst the most morally sound military decisions that U.S. has made in the last 10 years.

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that if the U.S. had of ONLY been able to drop a bomb on his head from a great height, they could have forgone all their military adventures and walked away swaggering - with nary a moral qualm to be found.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

Show trials are the moral choice here?

[jonathankorman.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry the rule of law seems so inconvenient for you.

The Israelis gave Adolf Eichmann a trial. We could cowboy up.

[chessdev.livejournal.com]

They executed him too

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

Would a US trial be in any way impartial? Was the one for Eichmann?

Isn't a jury supposed to be impartial so that they might weigh the evidence fairly?

[ytterbius.livejournal.com]

With respect, given that he was on foreign soil as a foreign enemy, a trial is not Constitutionally required, even if it might have been "morally" preferable. I don't know that rule of law completely applies.

Also, as a matter of practicality, given that there might be increased risk of martyrdom (and resulting violence) from a drawn-out sham trial, I'd say that the quick end could be additionally supported. There may, in any case, be resulting violence from this act, but I get the feeling that much of the reasoning behind doing it the way they did it (like the quick burial at sea) was in order to minimize this risk.

If they had dropped a bomb on the building (or the whole freakin' city), this would never come up as an issue. He'd still have had no trial, and he'd still be dead (though less confirmably so).

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

Ironically WRT the Nuremberg Trials, it was Stalin who insisted on trials as opposed to summary executions and got what he wanted. If Churchill and Roosevelt had had their way, mass hangings would have happened. Stalin on the whole was far from law and order, but looking at that, it does make you wonder.

[malasadas.livejournal.com]

Israel did give Eichmann a trial. According to the Wiki article, he was offered instant execution interestingly enough.

At the time Eichmann was apprehended though, he no longer had followers at arms fighting for him.
bin Laden's relationships to the very varied groups claiming to be under the Al Qaeda banner at this time are various and uncertain, but even AQ "central" still has fighters. Which means, bin Laden wasn't living in "retirement" but as a leader and commander of an active fighting group.

I think there is a distinction there that matters, and Meus was fairly right in the other thread: unless he laid right down on the ground and clearly surrendered, he was going to get shot. Eichmann was apprehended on the street getting off a bus, not holed up in an armed compound. I cannot blame either the SEALS or their commanders for setting the rules as they did which meant the people in that compound were going to get shot for anything less than laying right down and surrendering right quick.

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

Find me a jury of 12 impartial Americans on this topic

Too bad.

No such thing as a fair trial ... for this guy in the US.

Ever heard of the international tribunal? It's in The Hague. It's where you send war criminals - like Milosevic. He was sentenced there.

and prevent any attempts to rescue him

Because there've been multiple attempts by Mujahideen to kill Obama in the White House, and they've all succeded, amirite? Now add all the security measures that go along with a fully-fledged military base in the middle of the US.

do we need to draw out the pain of 9/11 with this?

No, better forget it ASAP. The sooner the memory disappears, the sooner the problem with terrorism will solve itself on its own. OK?

if anyone would suggest life in prison instead of execution

Not really necessary. Since he's so guilty (surprise verdict!), it's highly unlikely that he'd live very long, is it?

Point: A trial would've sent the message: "We're America. We stand by the rule of law, just as we constantly tell you all the time. We believe this man is guilty of many crimes. Let's prove this without a shadow of a doubt (it won't be too hard), then give him the sentence he deserves (death), and apply law to him (death). We don't do vendetta just because we can". Is it too hard? Maybe. But after all, you asked.

[mrsilence.livejournal.com]

In light of the actions of the U.S. in recent times, trialling Bin Laden would have served no purpose in terms of convincing any that the U.S. stood by the rule of law who was not already convinced.

[telemann.livejournal.com]

I know Mayor Giuliani wanted him returned here for a trial with charges brought against him by New York City specifically, but I don't know if he changed his mind about that later. One of the planners for attacks against the WTC prior to 1993, was eventually arrested and his trial took place blocks from Trade Center). I think several others did too, including those who participated in the 1993 attack.

[a-new-machine.livejournal.com]

Based on this, (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aEsxveP.9qnA) I'd say he no longer felt that way about Osama.

[mikeyxw.livejournal.com]

If he was captured, I would expect that he would be sent to Guantanamo or somewhere similar and have started the slow process of a trial. Sure, the trial would be imperfect, as are all human endeavors, but I'm sure we would have made a good effort. I don't expect it would have been difficult to get a confession either, although a not-guilty plea would have been kinda cool.

He of course was not captured, he was killed while resisting US troops who were sent to capture or kill him. I'm not sure why anyone would have a problem with this. He certainly seemed like a legitimate target to be captured or killed. Okay, I can see why a Pakistani might have a problem, but it would take a lot of guts to get all indignant about this one considering he was a few hundred yards from their military academy.

[anfalicious.livejournal.com]

Stumbled across this, people might find it interesting:

Osama bin Laden won't appear in US court alive: attorney general (http://world.globaltimes.cn/americas/2011-04/513793.html)

Source: Xinhua [13:54 March 17 2010]

US Attorney General Eric Holder said on Tuesday that al-Qaida world network leader Osama bin Laden will never appear in a US courtroom because he won't be brought in alive.

[luzribeiro.livejournal.com]

United States President Barack Obama signed the death warrant for the world's most wanted man Osama bin Laden on April 29, after months of preparations and meticulous planning against the highest-value target.

http://www.rediff.com/news/report/obama-signed-kill-osama-order-on-april-29/20110502.htm

Yep, it was totally a "capture or kill" mission.

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

Following our own purported moral code is a prerequisite to asking others to do it too. We have failed that yet again.

[peamasii.livejournal.com]

They couldn't put him on trial, remember that he was trained by the CIA.
/conspiracy

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

A show trial, which is what this would be in practice, would put the USA even further into authoritarian land than we already are. It was either kill him and be criticized for making a martyr of a rich Saudi or put him on show trial and be criticized for a show trial of a guy whose claim to fame is ripping off Hirohito's idea of aerial warfare and applying that to civilians.

[devil-ad-vocate.livejournal.com]

Bullet. Head. Dead.

Good.

[anfalicious.livejournal.com]

Man it must be nice for things to be so simple.

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

Interesting new take:

http://www.daybreakingnews.com/post/Ayman-al-Zawahiri-al-Qaida-no2-Betrayed-Osama-bin-Laden.aspx

"Ayman al-Zawahiri, al-Qaida no.2, Betrayed Osama bin Laden?"

In the light of the recent post describing Zawahiri http://talk-politics.livejournal.com/987420.html#cutid2 this is curious.

[debergerac.livejournal.com]

backstabbing for the good of the cause is a time-honored tradition among sinners and thieves.

but this would be an interesting twist, if true.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

I'll bite:

What loss?

[mybodymycoffin.livejournal.com]

How easily we betray our hallowed self-righteousness as the hollow puppet of silly nationalism.

[whoasksfinds.livejournal.com]

killing men who directed and inspired attacks against tens of thousands of innocent civilians across the world is not silly nationalism. its global justice. life ain't a fairy tale.

[skull-bearer.livejournal.com]

You do realise that if he was captured and given a trial, he could have been questioned and we could have learnt more about various terrorist groups and the planning of 9/11? And if he for some reason was not 100% responsible for this deaths, wouldn't it be better to know and be on the lookout for those who were?

Trials have a point, they're not just for being nice.

[luzribeiro.livejournal.com]

But no, wait, he was clearly evil incarnate so we should just kill him and thus the problem is solved. ;)

[meus-ovatio.livejournal.com]

*shrug* So sue us. If people want to make hackneyed legal arguments, bring it to court.