Everything is connected? Huh ?

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

Someone posted a really cool clip on this forum , and for me, video clips on you tube are like peanuts - I can never be content with just one!

Here is the original clip for those who missed it -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfPeprQ7oGc&feature=related

So here is another clip that follows up on the 'double slit experiment' with Dr. Quantum.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIYU5IrIazc&feature=related

Why is it that light behaves as a beam of particles, yet also as a series of waves?
how is it that just observing can change the result of an experiment?

Here is the suggestion . Everything is connected.

Ok, it is just a suggestion , but ar there other possibilities?

if everything is connected, then what I do in the UK today may affect millions of people in some faraway land. And iit is also true that some kid dying in a slum somewhere in Brazil is going to have a negative impact on the lives of all of us.

Equally tru, if that kids was given a decent home and healthcare, given a chance , in other words, they may go on to create new possibilities - maybe even a cure for cancer, who knows?

So, what do the smarter members of this community have to say? Are all things really interconnected? Or are we still missing something ?
Maybe they are not interconnected in the ways that I think - but you tell me.

Comments

[ddstory.livejournal.com]

Glad you liked it. This one is also a potential life-changer:

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[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

thank you, DD - I have to say that Ii found that one before coming here, but nice to see it added to the collection.

What our Mod says above - that this Quantum physics is being grabbed by New Age authors , merely to sell books, is to me, the antitesis of the thesis.
We need to put the other POV with the 1st and get a consensus.

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

These questions remind me of The Secret (teh Sekkrit).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_%282006_film%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_%28book%29

The most notable piece of New Age nonsense I've watched/read in a decade.

The counter-argument shreds it to bits:

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/152082/debunking_the_secret_why_you_dont_need.html

http://www.mindtweaks.com/wordpress/?p=167

Much to read, but it's totally worthwhile, especially for those who demand that their "intuition" (whatever that means) is more relevant for unraveling the secrets of the universe than rational thought, led by the scientific approach.

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

oh - I love this place ! I really do !!!
I read your link and found this one. Another peanut for my collection !

http://www.mindtweaks.com/wordpress/?p=143

seee, this guy says that he went into exams saying to people ' i am so ging to fail' - and got straight As every time.

he argues that psyching yourself up for success is hard work, but accepting the possibility of failureexists , but is overall unimportant , is his way of dealing with that possibility.
"Defensive pessimism ' he calls it.
I knida went into politics with this attitude.
I want to see UK the government investing in Green technology and green jobs, for example. now, the greens fought on that platform and never got elected.
However, David Cameron , the guy who won , has made it part of his government's policy. so, i am happy.

I didn't *expect* to win , but I did expect a difference if I put my ideas out there. I don't give a damn who wins, as long as I get what I want to actually happen.

can i ask though , where the truth lies between possibility a - that the universe is merely mateirial and the other option-
that it is all merely a consequence of us being like ' flatlanders/ are there really 11 different dimensions out there? if so, how do we know that ?

[mrsilence.livejournal.com]

In psychological terms, intuition is an emotional response system that uses models of past experiences to generate quick decisions or emotional responses.

In other words, it provides useful shortcuts when assessing the right course of action in a hurry, but is not great at complex decision making.

e.g. for a human living in Africa intuition might trigger a flight/fight response because it predicts from past experience that "large striped animal = run away!". Such a response is obviously not appropriate in a zoo, where other factors (i.e. tiger enclosure) makes the issue more complex.

Some psychologists think that using intuition in daily life is almost a lost skill. Because so many decisions rely on complex factors, most of the time we tend to rely on our conscience to make decisions. Our conscience is good at complex decisions, but is extremely slow and inefficient, comparatively.

So people tend to get bogged down and sometimes even paralysed when deciding between alternatives that actually have little difference in outcome (extreme e.g. inability to decide should I wear the white shirt or the off-white shirt to work today?) because they are so reliant on conscious rational processes, instead of just going with whatever feels right or if there is no feeling, choosing at random.

This further perpetuates the reliance on conscious decision making processes, because intution requires an goal-seeking feedback loop (much like the scientific method, actually) to create more reliable intuitive responses, but because this decision making process doesn't get used regularly, it often lacks the experiential test data it needs to fill out and update its models and responses. Another way of looking at it is that some people become so worried about making wrong decisions that they become almost incapable of making some (this is related to the psychological issue colloquially referred to as perfectionism, but which can also manifest itself as a host of other anxiety and compulsive disorders).

The upshot is that people who are actually good at intuition (but not necessarily intellectual geniuses) can encourage other people to "use their intuition" and thus begin to look like mystical gurus.

For once people start actually exercising their 'intuition muscles" they may think things like "Wow I was so stressed worrying about X issue and then told me to just 'use my intution and do whatever felt right' Now I don't worry about that little things anymore, the answers just seem to bubble out of the depths of my mind, which means these guys are geniuses! What other wonderful advice can they give me?"

This is also the same principle on which "The Secret" (sort of) works. It basically says 'focus on what outcome you want and whatever decisions you make will automatically lead you there'.

Well if you start using intuition effectively, this tends to naturally create more and more refined decision making models, which makes you more and more likely to intuitively make decisions that lead towards your preferred outcome. Because you aren't aware of consciously guiding yourself towards the goal, it can seem almost like magic. In actual fact, it's simply doing what the human brain is designed to do.

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

Why is it that light behaves as a beam of particles, yet also as a series of waves?

Here's a suggestion. Everything is constructed of tiny vibrating loops of energy, and each type of particle has its properties defined by the manner in which these loops are vibrating. So it's possible that one type of particles (photons) have this property of being dualistic and behaving like a wave while simultaneously being a particle with a multitude of potential locations at the same time.

This is called String Theory. It's nowhere near being proven, and it may never be, but still it's not something someone came up with after tossing Tarot cards, but is one possible hypothesis based on all the data that's been gathered so far. It could be totally wrong, mind you.

So in a sense - sure, we may be all connected as we're all part of this. On a most basic level. Like, micro level. Affecting others' fate with our deeds, from a distance? That's a bit of a stretch but it would be disingenuous to outright dismiss it as a possibility.

Also, on a more literal level, we're definitely connected through being constructed of stardust which tends to re-combine before, during and after our existence.

how is it that just observing can change the result of an experiment?

It's just that we still don't have the required instruments and knowledge to comprehend the nature of matter at its most basic level (if a "most" basic level could ever be defined - we keep finding more and more basic levels one after another, like peeling layers of onion). It could be that it's not the act of observing that changes the result, but our imperfect instrumentarium - both technological and mental.

I'm aware this may've only confused you further instead of bringing more clarity but there it is.

[malasadas.livejournal.com]

Sorry, I just have to:



alt text: This works on pretty much every level

[malasadas.livejournal.com]

We almost certainly are all interconnected.

But we're also finite beings -- I have only so many resources, so many minutes in the day and so much conscious ability to process information.

I try to live my life by principles of "Tikkun Olam" but in expanding circles of influence and responsibility.

[malasadas.livejournal.com]

p.s.

You have to keep yourself of two minds on this statement:

Equally tru, if that kids was given a decent home and healthcare, given a chance , in other words, they may go on to create new possibilities - maybe even a cure for cancer, who knows?

Maybe he grows up to be the next Pol Pot.

We don't care about issues of equality and justice on the premise that all those uplifted will be material boons to society. We do it because equality and justice should matter.

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

We do it because equality and justice should matter.
Ah, true comrade, but some of us are trying to sell the concept to financial giants who are ethical pygmies, and who will only 'buy into' something if it has a direct material benefit to themselves.

And maybe we are wasting our time, but I will try anyway.
thanks for the link to Tikkun Olam , BTW.

[korean-guy-01.livejournal.com]

And iit is also true that some kid dying in a slum somewhere in Brazil is going to have a negative impact on the lives of all of us

How so? What you've stated doesn't justify such a strong assertion.

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

~What you've stated doesn't justify such a strong assertion.~

I haven't asserted anything yet. I merely ask if such is true...

[agk-ru.livejournal.com]

Thanx for a bit of good old quantum mechancs here.

The original clip is ALMOST correct. Except one thing. In that tiny world of particles you cannot "just look" at the electron. How does one look at something? Our eyes analyze the light scattered by the objects we are looking at. One cannot see anything without light, can one?

The same thing with looking at an electron. You must irradiate it with photons and analyse the scattered photons. In fact, it is only one photon now. For a tiny guy as electron, a blow from a photon having an energy comparable with its own, is in no way some innocent effect which can be ignored. There is no chance that the electron will go on behaving like before after this terrible shock.

As for the equating (particle = wave) and (everything is interconnected), those two ideas do not seem to me obviously related to each other.

[ddstory.livejournal.com]

"Look", not in the sense of seeing with your eyes. They're using "look" in the sense that you put a measuring instrument which registers where the electron will land. Forget that animated mechanic eye that they put next to the double-slit. :)

If you irradiate the electron with something, you break up the sterile environment that is needed to perform an observation in the first place. That's why the Large Hardon Collider is so hard to work with - first you have to suck out all side factors that may affect the results.

Speaking of "intuitive" knowledge and all that BS...

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

Btw I'm just having a hilarious exchange (http://asthfghl.blog.bg/technology/2011/03/06/otkriha-nova-quot-fizika-quot.700305#comments) with a guy who seems to believe all sort of crap, and when asked for evidence, he says "Don't care about evidence. My intuition is more important". Some of his beliefs:

- There's no massive black hole in the center of galaxies. In fact black holes don't exist. Those are just black stars radiating all kind of stuff and energy and heating the planets.

- The Sun (our Sun) doesn't consist of hydrogen and helium. It doesn't emit energy. Everything in the Solar system gets heated by an invisible black star called Nemesis, which is a brother to the Nibiru planet.

- Every 600 million years, Earth passes through the "galactic plain" and the energy of the central black star plus the gravitational pull causes an apocalypse.

- At that time, somehow miraculously-simultaneously, the black star Nemesis also passes through the Solar system (yes, THROUGH it) and heats up every planet. Saturn and Jupiter have been "reputedly" heated up in recent years, and we also have the global warming because of Nemesis. Also Nibiru will come and destroy us all. Again and again.

Now. How do you argue with such people?

[agk-ru.livejournal.com]

Panookah, I like your comments.

[notmrgarrison.livejournal.com]

"Equally tru, if that kids was given a decent home and healthcare, given a chance , in other words, they may go on to create new possibilities - maybe even a cure for cancer, who knows?"

We should save 10 kids in Brazil, and get cures for cancer, AIDS, Alzheimers, The Plague, and 6 others.

[notmrgarrison.livejournal.com]

"fucking electrons are planning something, otherwise they wouldn't give a shit about being watched."

[agk-ru.livejournal.com]

"fucking electrons are planning something..."

You'll be loughing, but sometimes I think they do.
The quotation is exellent.

[weswilson]

"Why is it that light behaves as a beam of particles, yet also as a series of waves?"

Because it is a complex entity, whose full properties we do not yet understand.

"how is it that just observing can change the result of an experiment?"

The same way that if we used water to detect the speed of water, we'd change the speed of the water. The detection tool we use is too brutish to work on the level we need to detect behavior of subatomic particles.

[notmrgarrison.livejournal.com]

"Because it is a complex entity, whose full properties we do not yet understand."

Or it's quite simple, but like nothing in the macro world.

[taurus-1.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty sure we are all interconnected in some scientifically-unapproved way. And of course all of our actions have some impact on the planet-wide scale. There are a lot of proofs for that in a real life: psychology, arts, theaters, 'ideas flowing in the air', inspirations, insights etc.

[rasilio.livejournal.com]

"if everything is connected, then what I do in the UK today may affect millions of people in some faraway land. And iit is also true that some kid dying in a slum somewhere in Brazil is going to have a negative impact on the lives of all of us."

Even without invoking mysticism or quantum theory it is quite easy to show how we are all connected and seemingly unrelated events separated in time and space are linked. The problem however is we live in such a chaotic environment with many trillions of interactions happening each second that the "ripple" effect of any one interaction is overwhelmed by all of the other interactions taking place.

So yes, your decision whether to buy a Latte or just a cup of coffee this morning "might" end up causing a ripple effect of global significance (albeit one no one is ever likely to realize) the more likely result is that it means nothing.

You also have a problem with that word I bolded up there, see whether the net impact of something is positive or negative is purely subjective and in fact impossible to measure on anything but a personal scale.

So that kid dying in Brazil might or might not have an effect on you in the UK or on me in the US even though we may never realize it there is no way to say whether the effect is positive or negative.

See what you are not acknowledging is that while it is possible that given the opportunity that this one kid would go on to be the key to discovering the cure for cancer, it is just as likely that given the chance he would go to discover/create the virus that wipes out 95% of humanity.

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

it is just as likely that given the chance he would go to discover/create the virus that wipes out 95% of humanity.
Or become the next Pol Pot or Adolf Hitler, as someone else pointed out.

mysticism is something I have come across and got involved in. given my great age and relatively affluent situation in life, this is not suprising. what suprises me though is that if mysticism does work, then why are we taking so long to reach utopia?

there seems to be a gap between the promise of what it can achieve and what it actually delivers. And that goes for Christianity, Tao, Buddhism, etc , etc.

So, having seen a reminder of some of these old New Age concepts online, I thought I would raise the question here. I mean, if what the Prof is saying is true, it ought to work - so why doesn't it?

My thanks to everyone else who has come back, and you too, Rasilio.

not that I would say i'm smart

[ineedsleepy.livejournal.com]

to the best of my knowledge, I think we should make two distinctions: 1)Things that are connected are connected and you can give reasons why they are.
2)Things that are not connected have no relationship with each other

simple :) To say that everything is connected is like saying the month I was born has as big effect on me as to whom I was born too. Unless you say something nonsensical like, It's even more connected than the other thing in which case you are making distinctions already so why adopt very confusing terminology.

Re: not that I would say i'm smart

[mrsilence.livejournal.com]

I think the more accurate way of stating this is that everything is physically connected, but just because this connection exists does not mean there is a pattern or meaningful (in a human sense) relationship.

Human brains are designed to detect patterns and infer meaning, both from less than complete data. Like pretty much every human faculty, only the most gross tendencies in terms of seeing false patterns and meanings will get bred out of the gene pool. So we are all prone as a result to seeing patterns and finding meaning that does not exist. It usually isn't seriously harmful, but it does create a certain number of very wacky people (who nonetheless manage to breed).

[notmrgarrison.livejournal.com]

A lot of people don't realize what's really going on. They view life as a bunch of unconnected incidences and things. They don't realize that there's this like lattice of coincidence that lays on top of everything. I'll give you an example, show you what I mean. Suppose you're thinking about a plate of shrimp. Suddenly somebody will say like plate or shrimp or plate of shrimp out of the blue no explanation. No point in looking for one either. It's all part of a cosmic unconsciousness.

I'll give you another instance. You know the way everybody's into weirdness right now. Books in all the supermarkets about Bermuda triangles,UFO's, how the Mayans invented television. That kind of thing.

Well the way I see it it's exactly the same. There ain't no difference between a flying saucer and a time machine. People get so hung up on specifics. They miss out on seeing the whole thing. Take South America for example. In South America thousands of people go missing every year. Nobody knows where they go. They just like disappear. But if you think about it for a minute, you realize something. There had to be a time when there was no people. Right?

Well where did all these people come from? hmmm? I'll tell you where. The future. Where did all these people disappear to? hmmm?

The past?

That's right and how did they get there?

How the fuck (hell) do I know?

Flying saucers. Which are really? Yeah you got it. Time machines. I think a lot about this kind of stuff. I do my best thinking on the bus. That how come I don't drive, see?

You don't even know how to drive.

I don't want to know how. I don't want to learn. See? The more you drive, the less intelligent you are.

[the-rukh.livejournal.com]

I don't know where your monologue is from unfortunately.


Considering the strange circumstances thing though:
Generally coincidences happen because of probability. Out of the infinite circumstances in your life, it is certain that a few times highly improbable things will happen. Its just that you remember when the improbable things happen and not when the normal things happen.

The old example is when you pick up your phone about to call someone and suddenly it rings and its that person calling you. You don't think about the ten thousand other times you were going to call someone and it didn't happen, you just remember the improbable times.

The fact is, if you throw a dice ten thousand times, you're going to get things that in isolation seem improbable, like a streak of six sixes in a row, but given how many times you're rolling the dice, its actually likely that such things happen.

It doesn't mean there's some supernatural power at work, its just natural.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

What quantum mechanics indicates to me is the fundamental paradox of large-scale order from small-scale chaos. At the most fundamental level of existence the universe is completely random and operates on a basis entirely different from logic as seen and accepted by humankind, yet on the large scale this leads to the stars, galaxies, and galactic clusters that follow ordered astrophysics.

However what you ask is related in my view to the butterfly effect, and yes, it is possible for a single change in the human scale on a small scale to in 300 years completely alter the planet as we know it.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

I might note, however, that the kid in Brazil could just as easily go on to be the next Juan Peron or (God forbid) Francisco Solano Lopez. However it is extremely unlikely that that kid would go on to be the next Muhammad or Timur-i-leng, as there are certain nets that catch those butterflies, and similarly the kid might develop a cure for cancer but nobody's going to cure death any time soon.

[luvdovz.livejournal.com]

By the way I nominate this post for Recommended because of the absolutely fabultastic discussion that followed.

Great refreshing moment amidst all the abortion/unions/taxes/Fox bickering.

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

Granted.

[the-rukh.livejournal.com]

Yes, all actions have an impact, its just that we never know what the impact is. Its the whole butterfly effect thing- a butterfly flapping its wings in Australia might cause a tornado in Kansas. Chaos theory. It's just that its not useful to us, we do not have the capability to create such a complex model to take such things in to account, so it does not allow us any sort of predictive ability, its just a fanciful thought.

The kid dying in mexico could grow up to be the next nobel peace prize winner if he did not die, or he may grow up to kill the next nobel peace prize winner. Or he may drive over you on a rainy day, or throw you out of the way of a car. Yes, it all is connected, but that does not help us.

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

Why is it that light behaves as a beam of particles, yet also as a series of waves?

Because we're still assuming that particles are real things with particular properties. Just like people assumed phlogiston existed in order to explain their observations.

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

just curious, but if they are not ' real things' - what on earth are they , then ?