"The man above you said that the guy "slipping a person another drink" because they felt "entitled" to sex didn't make someone a rapist. You agreed with him in the comment below that. Therefore, it stands to reason, that you didn't feel that getting someone drunk on purpose was rape, which it is. "
Actually no I didn't. I never commented directly on the "slipping someone a drink part" I only dealt with the manipulation and some levels of coercion.
"When someone has expressly said no, any further manipulation to get them to say yes, or any unwanted sexual advancement after that, is sexual assault. "
No it is not. It "might" be sexual harassment depending on the exact scenario but it is not sexual assault.
I mean hell, with this statement you have just outlawed all negotiation and most discussion of boundaries because the instant someone says no it becomes impossible for the other party to propose an alternative and you still have not dealt with the issue of exactly how long does a no last before someone can ask again which leads me to...
"what the fuck does this have to do with anything? If someone says no then you leave them alone. If they change their mind then they'll come to you and say yes. Pretty simple. "
Right, so if my wife says not tonight I have a headache it means I can never initiate, request, or even ask for sex with her again and the instant I do I become a rapist. But what happens when I tell her no at some point in the future? Does that mean neither of us is ever allowed to have sex again? I mean using your words literally every instance of sex between my wife and I is mutual rape becuase we have both said no on multiple occasions in the past meaning both of us have to now wait for the other person to start things but the other cannot start things because they previously asked and were told no.
So again, what is the statute of limitations on a no?
"It's not illegal to have a personal requirement. It is illegal to expect someone to fulfill that requirement and then continue to manipulate and intoxicate them until they fulfill said requirement, even after they've expressly said no. "
Drop it with the intoxication. EVERYONE on this thread has said getting someone drunk to lower their defenses is rape and I highly doubt you would get anyone to admit it even if they believed differently.
Manipulation on the other hand. Please define it for me. Does buying flowers, giving gifts, and being otherwise romantic count a manipulation? If not why not? Is that not taking actions to alter the other persons thought processes to get what you want as well?
The problem here is you CAN'T define it in a useful manner because manipulation is in the eyes of the one being manipulated, a person can do X with regards to prospective mate 1 and be found romantic and charming, however with prospective mate 2 the exact same actions will be perceived as manipulative and slimy. In fact in a lot of cases with a single person any given set of actions can seem wonderful one day and manipulative the next for example...
"Mr Ladies Man loves the ladies. He can't get enough of them, all of them. So once he's had sex with them he's ready to move on to the next one. But he would never do anything to hurt them, no, he's a smooth operator. He's got the whole package too, looks, voice, hygiene, just right accent to give him that exotic appearance, charm, eloquence, and a deep understanding of romance.
His romances never last more than a few days but during them he sweeps women off their feet by being everyman who was ever written about in a romance novel. Most of them say no initially of course but few can resist his charms for more than one or two dates. He never pushes, cajoles, begs, or threatens and yet he can change the mind of even the most chaste of women.
Afterwords however when he stops calling or if they do manage to find him and have a confrontation with him they feel ashamed and used and all of those wonderful romantic words and gestures he did in their time together now just look like the acts of a manipulative con man"
So, is he a rapist or not?
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Date: 22/2/11 15:14 (UTC)Actually no I didn't. I never commented directly on the "slipping someone a drink part" I only dealt with the manipulation and some levels of coercion.
"When someone has expressly said no, any further manipulation to get them to say yes, or any unwanted sexual advancement after that, is sexual assault. "
No it is not. It "might" be sexual harassment depending on the exact scenario but it is not sexual assault.
I mean hell, with this statement you have just outlawed all negotiation and most discussion of boundaries because the instant someone says no it becomes impossible for the other party to propose an alternative and you still have not dealt with the issue of exactly how long does a no last before someone can ask again which leads me to...
"what the fuck does this have to do with anything? If someone says no then you leave them alone. If they change their mind then they'll come to you and say yes. Pretty simple. "
Right, so if my wife says not tonight I have a headache it means I can never initiate, request, or even ask for sex with her again and the instant I do I become a rapist. But what happens when I tell her no at some point in the future? Does that mean neither of us is ever allowed to have sex again? I mean using your words literally every instance of sex between my wife and I is mutual rape becuase we have both said no on multiple occasions in the past meaning both of us have to now wait for the other person to start things but the other cannot start things because they previously asked and were told no.
So again, what is the statute of limitations on a no?
"It's not illegal to have a personal requirement. It is illegal to expect someone to fulfill that requirement and then continue to manipulate and intoxicate them until they fulfill said requirement, even after they've expressly said no. "
Drop it with the intoxication. EVERYONE on this thread has said getting someone drunk to lower their defenses is rape and I highly doubt you would get anyone to admit it even if they believed differently.
Manipulation on the other hand. Please define it for me. Does buying flowers, giving gifts, and being otherwise romantic count a manipulation? If not why not? Is that not taking actions to alter the other persons thought processes to get what you want as well?
The problem here is you CAN'T define it in a useful manner because manipulation is in the eyes of the one being manipulated, a person can do X with regards to prospective mate 1 and be found romantic and charming, however with prospective mate 2 the exact same actions will be perceived as manipulative and slimy. In fact in a lot of cases with a single person any given set of actions can seem wonderful one day and manipulative the next for example...
"Mr Ladies Man loves the ladies. He can't get enough of them, all of them. So once he's had sex with them he's ready to move on to the next one. But he would never do anything to hurt them, no, he's a smooth operator. He's got the whole package too, looks, voice, hygiene, just right accent to give him that exotic appearance, charm, eloquence, and a deep understanding of romance.
His romances never last more than a few days but during them he sweeps women off their feet by being everyman who was ever written about in a romance novel. Most of them say no initially of course but few can resist his charms for more than one or two dates. He never pushes, cajoles, begs, or threatens and yet he can change the mind of even the most chaste of women.
Afterwords however when he stops calling or if they do manage to find him and have a confrontation with him they feel ashamed and used and all of those wonderful romantic words and gestures he did in their time together now just look like the acts of a manipulative con man"
So, is he a rapist or not?